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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone in the middle?

1000 replies

piesforever · 19/10/2023 22:32

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Worriedmum159 · 21/10/2023 23:01

Holy fucking Shit balls. Just read the AMA. Cannot get my head around @AlphaTransWoman‘s beliefs of what makes a women. Submission. Get to fuck. Jesus wept. I’m so bored of these perverts annexing out lives as wank fodder. Fuck off.

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 00:09

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women. This is no bad thing and is very useful when programming a computer or making quick decisions during a battle (say).

Women tend to be more flexible and open minded in their approach, perhaps less hasty to judgement. This may explain the greater female interest in things like astrology and tarot, which men are likely to dismiss offhand as unscientific. It also explains why some men who do have religious beliefs can be fanatical and intolerant while women are more likely to take a "live and let live" approach.

Fuck, someone really wrote this! I just read it again. And THIS is someone who told us to just be kind to Mulvaney and use Mulvaney’s pronouns.

And then wonders why women get fucked off with a male person who thinks that just because they base women hood on supposedly ‘positive’ or at least non-offensive (in their male view) stereotypes, women and girls should be accepting of them stating that they too are women! I keep thinking I have seen it all and then there is more.

Readers, can you see yet?

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 00:13

AlphaTransWoman · 21/10/2023 21:16

I have to say, I can't understand the mentality of a trans woman who would choose to use the women's facilities, knowing it might cause distress, when there is a gender neutral one available for them. That thinking is entirely alien to me.

They are the SAME males as the ones who use female single sex spaces when there is no mixed sex options. What part are you struggling with?

YOU use female single sex spaces when you say you have no option knowing you may, actually are likely to, cause women distress with YOUR presence. FFS, how do you actually parse these scenarios to believe you are any fucking different?

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 00:22

BonfireLady · 21/10/2023 21:47

Good to hear this, thank you.

I'll get shot/labelled naive for saying this (I still don't think I'm naive but never mind) but this is the kind of conversation that can be a game changer. If Scott Newgent can stand with Matt Walsh on the subject of the harms being done to children and young people, why can't I stand with a transwoman on this specific issue?

I'd love to see some momentum behind Miranda Yardley's campaign (or similar) for gender-neutral facilities. It's a modern answer to the reality of the world we live in.

Have you missed the posts where this poster has declared that they will use female single sex spaces if no mixed sex option is available? And did you miss the post where they declared that it was women’s and girl’s issue if they were uncomfortable with that scenario?

What is it that you think this poster has over the ones you were talking about? Somehow, this poster believes they are better than those other males because they will only use female single sex spaces sometimes. They are very clear and very resolute that they will continue to do this. Similar to some other posters we had earlier in the year. In fact, so very very similar. It really is deja vu.

Maybe Bonfire you might be able to explain the difference between a male who uses the female single
sex spaces all the time vs some of the time? What is the difference apart from frequency?

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 00:27

Brefugee · 21/10/2023 21:58

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women. This is no bad thing and is very useful when programming a computer or making quick decisions during a battle (say).

oh @AlphaTransWoman
As an ex military woman who now works in IT i can categorically say that if you were sitting opposite me right now i would have to be restrained from punching you right in the throat.

We have TOLD you to stop with the demeaning, stupid and offensive generalisations. But you are like so many men who when hearing women being experts in something (in this case: being a woman) you just hear a buzzing in your ears or something.

You are an offensive and rude man.

Some of my best friends are the best strategic thinkers I know and are ex military women. And one also is a coder. Still women all!

I really think this poster cannot exist in real life. They are on the wind up, surely? They really keep coming out with this complete bollocks.

RealityFan · 22/10/2023 00:34

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 00:27

Some of my best friends are the best strategic thinkers I know and are ex military women. And one also is a coder. Still women all!

I really think this poster cannot exist in real life. They are on the wind up, surely? They really keep coming out with this complete bollocks.

This is maybe the third TRA that I've seen prolong threads. The last one was the OTT fellow who claimed he was in the James Esses story.

I genuinely think they're absolutely getting off in taking the rise out of women on this site.

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 00:44

I think you are right RF, now that I think about it. frood said it a page or so back and now that I have finished that AMA thread and thought about the other threads this male individual has posted on recently, I do think you both are right.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 00:55

If TRAs are prolonging threads for their own reasons that's fine, I have no problems taking advantage the opportunity to restate the lucid and unrefutable arguments against replacing the social and legal rights and protections of physical sex with an undefined and undetectable mental gender.

#LetThemSpeak

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

RealityFan · 22/10/2023 00:34

This is maybe the third TRA that I've seen prolong threads. The last one was the OTT fellow who claimed he was in the James Esses story.

I genuinely think they're absolutely getting off in taking the rise out of women on this site.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

literalviolence · 22/10/2023 02:33

BonfireLady · 21/10/2023 20:28

I also don't give a shit that Malaga Airport transwomen don't want these spaces. Tough. They can use the men's, the gender-neutral toilet or wait until they get home. Their choice.

toilets are all gender neutral. they're segregated by sex.

literalviolence · 22/10/2023 02:36

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

The very concept of talking about women in the psychological sense is insulting. The stereotypes you rehash are insulting. When you talk about compromise, you mean making women less safe. that's not civil.

Agrona · 22/10/2023 04:25

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

I did provide an example of a possible middle ground which you then wished to add forced pronouns as a requirement.

Many people on this board have provided answers which you ignore or dismiss, focusing only on your wants. You ignore women’s rights and bring everything back to you. This is not only about you. Women talking do not need to focus on men who are unhappy about their sex. We do not need your approval.

You even had a AMA focusing on you. It did provide many insights, few of them positive. I am not fluffy (what does that even mean?), weak of intellect or any of the other things you imagine woman are. Many women are survivors having to cope with traumatic events but still function.

Sorry, your lack of understanding and empathy indicate you will not take the time and effort required to gain knowledge about reality for women. That is not a debate.

OldCrone · 22/10/2023 07:26

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

The only way to be "female in the psychological sense" is to be female. You are male. There is absolutely nothing female about males. You can be as feminine as you want, but you cannot be female. This is a biological fact.

A woman is a female person with any personality. A man is a male person with any personality. Your need to stop denying these facts and see that your belief that your personality makes you not a man (or absurdly, makes you some kind of woman) is simply a delusion.

floranginajelly · 22/10/2023 07:47

@RealityFan
Agreed. These men are taking the piss

floranginajelly · 22/10/2023 07:48

This is the sort of thread that reminds me the only reasonable middle ground is that offered by the gorgeous Kellie Jay Keen

AlisonDonut · 22/10/2023 07:56

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

There is no woman in the psychological sense.

Only in the biological sense.

Transgender rights? As a male you had all the rights. And you just want more and more.

Civil Disagreement? You lost the right to your civil disagreement the moment you invaded your first female space. That was your uncivil encroachment brought on by your male entitlement that proves you are indeed, a man.

Honestly, guys like you peak women all the time so crack on.

Every sentence is its own tell.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2023 08:00

'female in the psychological sense'

Men are from.Mars, women don't have a penis.

MargotBamborough · 22/10/2023 08:00

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

There is no such thing as "female in the psychological sense".

Female means the same thing in humans as it does in other animals. It's a word relating to your reproductive role.

Your attempt to redefine the word female to include yourself excludes female people who don't conform to the stereotypes you wish to attach to being female.

What does someone with a penis and a "female gender identity" have in common with someone with a uterus and no gender identity?

AlisonDonut · 22/10/2023 08:00

floranginajelly · 22/10/2023 07:48

This is the sort of thread that reminds me the only reasonable middle ground is that offered by the gorgeous Kellie Jay Keen

Absolutely.

We need to strip all the bullshit out from all language and stick to basics.

Female/male
Straight/gay/lesbian/bisexual.

That's it.

Anything else is personality, preference and lifestyle choices.

And we shouldn't be sterilising kids based on non-conformity.

And repeal the bloody GRA. It's made a complete mockery of reality.

MargotBamborough · 22/10/2023 08:13

I've asked Alpha several times why trans women feel it is necessary to use specifically the words "women" and "female" for their identities.

If the things they are identifying with have nothing to do with femaleness, why not call their identity "flying spaghetti monster" instead?

Why use a word that already means something else, something that you are not?

To me, the answer seems obvious.

It's because society would just say, "That's great, mate. We support your right to be flying spaghetti monsters if you want. And of course to have the same rights as anyone else. If you think you need toilets and sporting categories for flying spaghetti monsters, feel free to campaign for those. Otherwise you can contemplate your flying spaghetti monster identity whilst having a poo in the men's toilets."

They need to use the words "woman" and "female" because using those words to describe themselves is the only thing they actually have in common with people who are women and female. And they have to show that they have something in common with us, otherwise they could not even begin to argue that we should be using the same spaces.

So it is all about women's spaces. There's nothing else it could really be about. Because if it were just about your own personal identity you would think of your own personal word for it.

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 08:17

AlphaTransWoman · 22/10/2023 01:16

I'm sorry you feel that way.

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

The only reason I have commented on my reasons for believing myself to be female in the psychological sense is that I was asked to do so on several occasions. I have attempted to state my views in good faith and without insulting others.

I'm happy to have a robust debate about this, but I'm disappointed you felt it necessary to make the insinuations you and some others did.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

Yes. We have seen what ‘your’ concern is.

This poster’s desire to live their life still using female single sex spaces believing they are especially entitled to them for their safety, knowing that even just so often they are then
likely leaving a wake of women and girls in distress and adding to women and girl’s with religious needs being excluded from public life.

On that AMA, they expressed derision eventually that it is ‘them’ - distressed girls and women, who had to cope with this male individual’s presence. They (the male individual) ‘just wants to pee.’

Apparently, that makes them different from those other males forcing women and girls to feel unsafe.

They have repeatedly declared how much they love, respect and have empathy for all women. That is absolutely riven false by every other utterance.

But they cannot or choose not to see it. They cannot have missed so many of us pointing it out to them, so the only alternative left is that they choose not see it.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

This poster’s posts follow a misogynistic pattern and thus I don’t consider them ‘civil’.

The entire premise of their structuring of womanhood is based on misogyny. It seems to be in turn based on your their misandry.

The posts about women’s prisons and how this poster viewed their sister’s experience at school, have resembled posts from men’s rights activists with a tweak. That tweak being, that they want into that perceived version of ‘womanhood’. They completely misunderstood the need and the basic premise of awards and programs that were created to reward exceptional women in the need to balance millennia of negative sexism based on our sexed bodies.

The reality seemed to completely bypass them completely. That some, likely many women, have ‘self-esteem issues’ that were described because of that millennia is negative sexist discrimination. But this poster leveraged themselves into the group deserving of that support program. Based off fucking stereotypes they have repeated and repeated again. The misogyny knew no boundary when they even fucking asked why women were offended when they described positive stereotypes. They treat sexed stereotypes as a fucking aspirational list! They even then tried to enforce women to adhere to that list of womanliness with remonstrations for us to be kind and describing us as ‘mean’.

The emotional manipulation intertwining through these posts has been very clear too. It is all there for everyone to see.

And yes, I am repeating myself. I am not posting for alpha’s benefit. I am posting for anyone reading who cannot quite see the inherent misogyny, emotional manipulation and cognitive dissonance, the inherent dishonesty and intellectual disconnect all through these posts. When you read them all
together it is overwhelming! As some posters have also commented after reading that AMA thread.

I and others will keep repeating our posts because they tell us they seek a compromise. They talk about it. But they have also stated, as we have had some posters already this years also tell us, that if that compromise is not available to them at the time, they will simply use the female single sex option.

Rendering all their words here meaningless.

And yet, I then compare their posts to the posts we have from female people who have taken testosterone who post here. They acknowledge full well that their presence in a female single sex space is likely to cause distress to girls and women. They seek alternative solutions every time. They won’t use male toilets because they are female. So they have developed networks that discuss single sex space needs throughout the UK to plan their needs.

Sure this poster is paying lip service to ‘seeking’ this compromise. It seems to me that they do so because they wish to live up to their own aspirational stereotypes to really prove to themselves that they are a woman!

Their proposal, any compromise proposal, will still leave many locations without third space options. And just to repeat for anyone reading thinking this is a good compromise, that means they will use female single sex spaces again. Just in less places. Like that is a worthwhile compromise.

‘If you be nice and compromise then ‘sometimes’ I won’t use the female single sex spaces, while you still use my demanded pronouns, and let me tell everyone that I am a woman while basing my entire life on harmful stereotypes (that I believe are supportive and aspirational, why don’t you)’ seems to be basis of the compromise.

Catsanfan · 22/10/2023 08:30

@AlphaTransWoman dear lord, your posts just get worse and worse!

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 08:37

Catsanfan · 22/10/2023 08:30

@AlphaTransWoman dear lord, your posts just get worse and worse!

Operation let them speak.

When you cut through the empty padding that had been positioned as kindness and empathy, the base is the same. Everytime.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2023 08:40

Anyone can claim good intent.

literalviolence · 22/10/2023 08:42

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 08:17

My concern is the increasingly polarised debate about transgender rights and the ways it which it might be possible to reach some sort of accommodation that suits everyone.

Yes. We have seen what ‘your’ concern is.

This poster’s desire to live their life still using female single sex spaces believing they are especially entitled to them for their safety, knowing that even just so often they are then
likely leaving a wake of women and girls in distress and adding to women and girl’s with religious needs being excluded from public life.

On that AMA, they expressed derision eventually that it is ‘them’ - distressed girls and women, who had to cope with this male individual’s presence. They (the male individual) ‘just wants to pee.’

Apparently, that makes them different from those other males forcing women and girls to feel unsafe.

They have repeatedly declared how much they love, respect and have empathy for all women. That is absolutely riven false by every other utterance.

But they cannot or choose not to see it. They cannot have missed so many of us pointing it out to them, so the only alternative left is that they choose not see it.

Is it not possible to have a civil disagreement without labelling each other in this way?

This poster’s posts follow a misogynistic pattern and thus I don’t consider them ‘civil’.

The entire premise of their structuring of womanhood is based on misogyny. It seems to be in turn based on your their misandry.

The posts about women’s prisons and how this poster viewed their sister’s experience at school, have resembled posts from men’s rights activists with a tweak. That tweak being, that they want into that perceived version of ‘womanhood’. They completely misunderstood the need and the basic premise of awards and programs that were created to reward exceptional women in the need to balance millennia of negative sexism based on our sexed bodies.

The reality seemed to completely bypass them completely. That some, likely many women, have ‘self-esteem issues’ that were described because of that millennia is negative sexist discrimination. But this poster leveraged themselves into the group deserving of that support program. Based off fucking stereotypes they have repeated and repeated again. The misogyny knew no boundary when they even fucking asked why women were offended when they described positive stereotypes. They treat sexed stereotypes as a fucking aspirational list! They even then tried to enforce women to adhere to that list of womanliness with remonstrations for us to be kind and describing us as ‘mean’.

The emotional manipulation intertwining through these posts has been very clear too. It is all there for everyone to see.

And yes, I am repeating myself. I am not posting for alpha’s benefit. I am posting for anyone reading who cannot quite see the inherent misogyny, emotional manipulation and cognitive dissonance, the inherent dishonesty and intellectual disconnect all through these posts. When you read them all
together it is overwhelming! As some posters have also commented after reading that AMA thread.

I and others will keep repeating our posts because they tell us they seek a compromise. They talk about it. But they have also stated, as we have had some posters already this years also tell us, that if that compromise is not available to them at the time, they will simply use the female single sex option.

Rendering all their words here meaningless.

And yet, I then compare their posts to the posts we have from female people who have taken testosterone who post here. They acknowledge full well that their presence in a female single sex space is likely to cause distress to girls and women. They seek alternative solutions every time. They won’t use male toilets because they are female. So they have developed networks that discuss single sex space needs throughout the UK to plan their needs.

Sure this poster is paying lip service to ‘seeking’ this compromise. It seems to me that they do so because they wish to live up to their own aspirational stereotypes to really prove to themselves that they are a woman!

Their proposal, any compromise proposal, will still leave many locations without third space options. And just to repeat for anyone reading thinking this is a good compromise, that means they will use female single sex spaces again. Just in less places. Like that is a worthwhile compromise.

‘If you be nice and compromise then ‘sometimes’ I won’t use the female single sex spaces, while you still use my demanded pronouns, and let me tell everyone that I am a woman while basing my entire life on harmful stereotypes (that I believe are supportive and aspirational, why don’t you)’ seems to be basis of the compromise.

Edited

This is a wonderful summary and showcases how little regard Alpha has for anyone else. Alpha is utterly disinterested on women's needs and seeing them entirely as a tool for their own fragile ego. Alpha presents a facade of reasonableness but it's thinly veiled. Really Alpha wants women to be be less safe, have no women's spaces and to accept a revolting version of womanhood so that Alpha can magically become somehow different from other men and somehow the same aa a group of people who share nothing other than a biology which is not his. It's a Trojan Horse. No Alpha, there's no compromise. Stay the fuck out of our spaces. You are an abusive male.

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