Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

I don't think many barristers haven't come across ad hominem before or had to say it a number of times. Not buying these silly little me comments.

I hope she's not playing into any feminine stereotypes . . . 😡

I had an interview at a university (for an administrative / managerial role rather than academic, admittedly) and they rang me to offer me the job as I was driving home from the interview.

But on (or back) to more important things…@Emotionalsupportviper, the Metrocentre has a cheese shop??

If you have Twitter, it's worth going to the source for this morning's TT - the Threadreaderapp unroll cuts off about half way through the thread.

@Notcookie thank you so much for your Christian / Atheist analogy.. That has really helped. I’m not sure that all transpeople, who most certainly exist, want to become the other sex, or feel that they have become the other sex, I think some of them may feel that being trans sits above or between the binary and therefore gives them transcendant insight into the human condition. So rather than being Christian or Atheist, they may be, in their own minds, more akin to angels? Thus Eddie/ Suzy Izzard, knows all about being a boy, all about being a girl, and can also share with us the uniqueness of transgenderism, and transage too, as they think they are over sixty and either a boy or a girl.

I do think we should probably give JM a break. She doesn't have an enviable job, I'm sure she's being paid accordingly though.

It made me laugh when she said something about Downes 'integrity and honesty' in having a sleepless night and suddenly realising that some of her lies were beyond blatant and could be easily checked remembering that there were more attendees of the conference and wanting to bring it to the court's attention. I think it might have honestly been better just not to bother bringing it up.

Yes, she is. Privilege protects everything said by witnesses, barristers, the judge and the panel members.

This is why I personally now use the phrase 'trans identified' rather than just 'trans'. Using just 'trans' implies that one accepts the notion of such a thing as 'being trans' in the first instance.

GC means that one doesn't accept the belief that by identifying as such it literally makes a man a woman and a woman a man, or that someone has no sex at all. Nobody's 'existence' is denied - their belief system is rejected. And it is rejected because it demands compliance from everyone else, along with the up-ending of reality and of natural instinct ( hence all of the misgendering going on from the OU staff)

People can believe what they want- but they don't get to enforce it on everyone else.

It must be very difficult to defend something when you don't even understand the premise of that which you oppose in the first place.

This is why I personally now use the phrase 'trans identified' rather than just 'trans'. Using just 'trans' implies that one accepts the notion of such a thing as 'being trans' in the first instance.

Me too, but that's probably why TRAs complained (at a government meeting to an MP) that it was being used on Mumsnet and was "hate speech" when coupled with their biological sex, leading MN to ban those phrases. I expect that's why most people don't use it here.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but I discovered this w/s while looking for Christmas presents, & it might appeal to the more adventurous cheese-lover:

https://www.finecheese.co.uk/cheese

I see that JM's other specialist legal area is Sport. That'll go well for the Wimms then.
https://www.blackstonechambers.com/barristers/jane-mulcahy-kc/

We are truly blessed.

https://www.chucklingcheese.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrP7Qu9KEggMVtYBQBh36Pw9WEAAYASAAEgLh0vD_BwE

A barrister cannot knowingly lie to the court. They can, of course, be mistaken. They are allowed to rely on what their client tells them, however unlikely that may be.

Afternoon ladies. Thanks for the coverage this morning. I was trying to dial in from my mobile with noise-cancelling headphones whilst out and about but it just wasn't happening. Hoping to get in for BC this pm. Wondering if he needs to labour all the inconsistencies in witnesses' testimony or a few short words will convey what a pile of steaming poo it all was. Any road, I'm all set to go, tea and biccies to hand .

Thank you for these clarifications.

I'm so used to being governed by Nolan Principles etc. that the public life obligations of other professions are opaque to me.

That's my local!

The cafe chef used to make a lovely goat curry during lockdown as well as selling off "surprise boxes" of cheese that was close to its sell by date.

I got a finecheese.co.uk voucher as a present and was thrilled to use it and have cheese delivered to my home.

I wondered whether one of her colleagues/ admin staff contacted her to say that she'd made a mistake and that perhaps it reflected badly on them and they were worried...

I understand goat is excellent for curries, and I was delighted to see it stocked in a newly-revamped foodhall not that far from me.

Hungry now.

t made me laugh when she said something about Downes 'integrity and honesty

It was Drake rather than Downes.

Yes while JM can't lie she can present the truth from a certain perspective, such as saying that the witness wants to change her lie answer after a sleepless night can be presented as honesty rather than dishonesty...

I’ve had various different interviews at universities and if I was going to offered the job it was almost always the same day. Apart from one where there were supplementary questions and then I was offered the job after the discussion about my answers.

On the defamation issue, universities don’t generally sue each other.

This puzzled me because it's not often you hear counsel say this kind of thing. JM is well spoken in a BBC newsreader sort of way. She sounded like Sophie Raworth to me. I have no idea of her background or that of the tribunal members but I wonder if her 'oops, sorry about my grammar/Latin there' she was trying to counter any 'posh barrister' impression before a panel some members of which did not have the same kind of national TV anchor voices.

Then have you got any inside info on how many of these chocs we'd get in 210g? They use the same pic for a different weight, too. We're trying to find individually wrapped chocs for work. (DH's work but you know what happens if you leave men to organise this sort of thing.🙄)

https://www.finecheese.co.uk/venchi-s-finest-assorted-chocolates-selection-210g

I had an interview at a university (for an administrative / managerial role rather than academic, admittedly) and they rang me to offer me the job as I was driving home from the interview.

i sincerely hope it didn’t lead you to drive into a bin! 😁