Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Clearly they are all finding the work load hard

If he has tonsillitis, he must be feeling pretty ropey, all 'round. So, for the Judge to chivvy him along, when he's done so much prep feels very unfair.

Any sympathy for the OU Counsel & team is tempered by the fact that they were the ones to call 18 witnesses and prepare a 5.5k bundle in the first place.

It must be an enormous amount of work to get through. I would imagine every night working on the closing submissions, adding in bits as he gets through each witness, changing questions for following witnesses as new info or aspects come to light.

It is no wonder he is expensive.

Everyone in the room chatting quietly, LD still sitting at the table on their own surrounded by massive folders.

This is true but I wonder how much was the OU and their solicitors insisting on that? I do feel sorry for JM in that she probably had to spend last night going over these other surprise grievances

Exactly. They were well aware of the level of prep BC would have to do.

Bless him, no wonder he's feeling unwell.

I wonder whether OU's strategy was to overload BC/JP with waffly witnesses who can't answer qn's, acres of paperwork, undisclosed grievances etc. in the hope they would miss something.

I can't see how either the judge or JM could expect Ben to speed up when they have wasted a good day overall dealing with timetables/IT/traffic delays and JM's horrid overlong interrogation of JP.

Unfortunately for OU, lots of clever people are on JP's side.

I'm reminded of that "lawyer of the week" article in the Times after Allison's case, and I'm pretty sure that BC said something to the effect that he works hard and then balances it by taking long holidays to decompress. He's due a monster holiday!

Sending lots of support to Jo and family and friends in the court room. I'm a middle aged Mum who suspects that she'll be got rid of from her flexi-time job if she mentions the fact that sex is real (and I have multiple biology degrees and a pre-kids career as a scientist). I really appreciate all you're doing for all of us to enable us to speak the truth and properly safeguard children as well as protect women's rights.

I'd hoped to come and support Jo in person next week but the ill child has probably put paid to that plan.... and I'll probably catch it... plus BC sounds like he doesn't need any more diseases to be exposed to.

I thought his speech was well made and we have spoken on our threads about the punitive effect of 18 witnesses on the cost and the intimidating effect on Jo but yes, also the punitive effect on Jo's counsel cannot be dismissed. And it's deliberate. Already both PB and LD have consistently refused to answer clear questions like foot stamping toddlers and taken up lots of time. The Judge could step in and stop it, surely when it's clear they're just refusing to answer and deliberately running up the clock?

Is BC really tall? The lady next to him looks tiny compared to him

Panel is back

They could have saved a day if they'd not spent so much time faffing about discussing the timetable

J concerned c BC's voice and asks if he'd rather finish earlier today (!).

J is giving up their two days' of deliberations for counsel to provide submissions. So J then starts on the list of witnesses, to timetable those. Minutes are passing...

Judge not making an order on the grievances.

Wednesday is okay for witnesses, Thursday off and Friday for closing submissions.

Does Ben have a junior or someone who could do the questioning of the less important witnesses?

No disclosure order for other grievances.

Panel concerned about voice and whether he can last until 5pm. BC content to see how it goes. For the timetable, panel has given up some deliberation time to enable BC to complete his submissions. Panel proposing that BC has until end of Wednesday to complete evidence, Thursday off (no attending court) and then Friday submissions. Can't hear JM but she sounds in agreement. BC in agreement too.

Nearly another hour lost already today.

Read LDs witness statement this morning. Their position seems to be that Jo was abrasive and used her position of power to try undermine LDs research. Evidence of this seems to be emails written by Jo inviting LD for a chat, and LDs hurty feels.

LD also had to explain why LD had retweeted various tweets calling the GCRN transphobic/terfs/bigots.

Further to that LD retweeted a tweet about the Forstater judgement commenting 'well done you have protected your rights to say dehumanising things'

LD was also Sally Hines teaching assistant when doing LDs PhD.

We are still discussing the timetable.

Yes GCITC, LD's evidence is consistent with the "difficult woman" approach.

FFS more timetabling discussions...

I've lost track a bit - how many OU witnesses have been called so far? It's going to take a while to get through 18 or 19 witnesses.

OMFG just get on with it. Unbelievable amount of time wasting.

JM helpfully going through details of what the witnesses are doing during their days on this earth. Minutes still passing.

LD wants to add more to her answers from yesterday!