Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

BC: Reads report written by IF. This is all from GI people's point of view. No consideration in this paper on when attacks on GC beliefs may have crossed the line. Is that fair observation?

IF: Yes

Yes! No consideration that attacks on GC can also cross the line. All one way.

All in all, way beyond the estimated 3hrs with IF but the feeling is that the time has been well spent?

Just a side note that I didn’t realise Maya’s name was pronounced For-state-er. I had always read it as For-statt-er.

as you were.

Great stuff! Thanks everyone for reposting the info so helpfully.

I've heard it pronounced several ways, including 'For-start-er'. I heard Maya pronounce it with a short 'a' so that's the way I pronounce it. I expect she is used to many variations!

Yes! No consideration that attacks on GC can also cross the line. All one way.

And IME that is a fundamental blind spot for trans rights activists and their allies, they tend to view all these cases as being about whether GC people were the harassers. That's backwards. It's not being brought to justify that trans people were harassed and discriminated against, but a GC person.

Oh, I would have hoped her Barrister would use Maya’s preferred pronunciation. Perhaps BC is getting tired too.

IF seems to be blaming Jo for not telling him how tough it was getting for her.

Judge asking if it would be helpful to start earlier tomorrow.

9.30am start tomorrow!

9.30am Start tomorrow. Judge keen to hear all witnesses scheduled for tomorrow.

I'm sure BC would only use a pronunciation that Maya was happy with.

TT commentary

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1711748477120593928.html

Well, that was another excellent examination from Ben. He really is prepared isn't he? Amazing.

IF: (re a meeting) They didn't all understand what ac freedom was or its implications. I also met with admin staff for eg, who wouldn't have understood about ac freedom - they were concerned with impact on their offspring, on their working conditions.
**
is he saying that admin staff were worried that views expressed by JP would impact their children who might be trans?

That's what I took from it.

Maybe BC is deliberately mispronouncing Maya's last name to show that grown ups don't dissolve into a puddle, need a safe space or a support animal if people get their name slightly wrong (or use right sex pronouns).

On the other hand maybe Maya has taken to her fainting couch with a support hot chocolate.... I wonder if Maya or Helen Joyce are listening in?

If I was Maya I’d never want to view the inside of a court room ever again. Nor see BC act in his professional capacity.

I mean, really. My academic friend has been scheduled for many academic events which mean he misses his actual children's bedtimes. No-one cares, and yet JP's meant to not say biology is real and rapist men shouldn't be locked up with women just in case someone who works at a university's relative is mildly distressed upon hearing this third hand? How will they cope with actual jobs?

This is what happens when you tell people someone disagreeing with them is literal violence and also when there are not appropriate workplace boundaries.

And it's bullying and discrimination against Jo to even CONSIDER this batshit point of view.

Yes, I reckon so. This is BC showing the skill of the experienced interrogator who has but a finite amount of time. Don't rush through all the witnesses for the sake of it - linger with a few who are irrefutably going to give you absolutely everything you need anyway.

IF, being a senior OU Dean, is well worth the focus.

Their DEI training is so Stonewalled it's utterly unfit for purpose.

Thank you everyone watching and commenting.

Thank you all. It's been a good day.

I did spot Akua Reindorf in the remote room.

I also met with admin staff for eg, who wouldn't have understood about ac freedom - they were concerned with impact on their offspring, on their working conditions.

Not only is that deeply patronising ("Oh, only academics would understand such concepts...") but it's also blatantly untrue.

Yes, that's how I understood it.

Which is extraordinary. Trans/NB kids get their mums to complain to mum's boss because stuff happening at mum's work might hurt their trans/NB feelings.