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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

407 replies

Imnobody4 · 02/10/2023 22:41

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds.

https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19

On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

OP posts:
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TheShellBeach · 03/10/2023 00:23

Hopefully this is the beginning of common sense returning.

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/10/2023 00:33

@jlpth

yeah yeah the poor man, that took a long time, as far as page two.

Sarah Jane Baker, the punch a TERF in the face advocate has had full genital reassignment surgery. Would you like your 70 year old Mum , or your 19 year old daughter, or even yourself, to wake up from surgery and find Sarah Jane giving you the hard eye from the next bed?

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 03/10/2023 00:33

He is male and would cause me, and other women huge distress.

Caffeinequeen91 · 03/10/2023 00:33

@jlpth yes I see this as a possible problem for the small percentage of M to F who have had their penis removed. I celebrate genuine single sex wards so I presume and hope there would be safeguards in the male ward for males who have had surgery to appear as females? I personally wouldn’t have an issue with a transwoman without a penis being on a female ward but the issue is bigger than my personal opinion and feelings, if you see what I mean. It’s not for females to move over and make room for males who have chosen to have elective surgery to appear a certain way, is it? The protection of such trans women is a separate issue.

Thelnebriati · 03/10/2023 00:35

If you think that rape is the only bad thing that can happen to a woman in a mixed sex ward, you haven't been in that position yourself.

Intelligenthair · 03/10/2023 00:42

I really hope this is common sense returning. Please please please.

TotalOverhaul · 03/10/2023 00:43

Thank you @IdleAnimations for linking to the story i immediately thought about when I saw this post. Rape is bad enough but to be told you can't have been raped because the rapist was a 'woman' is the lowest point of wokery yet.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 03/10/2023 01:16

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

The very small number of people this applies to can be accommodated in individual rooms. They aready have this option under current guidance, if they want it. Annex B lets them choose the ward for their sex, or the ward for their stated gender, or a side room.

This is a proposal not a policy.

Specifically, a proposal for a consultation. Actual change is some way off.

Cailleach1 · 03/10/2023 01:30

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

Oh right. So impotent men, maybe disabled men. Men who have penile cancer and had their penis removed. Do all those go on the female ward?

If a man who professes discomfort if placed on a ward corresponding to his sex, they need to sort out that accommodation appropriately. I don't think placing him in a women's ward is the solution. I extend my concern and sympathy to any woman/women made uncomfortable by plonking a man in the women's ward. Irrespective of any body modifications he may have had.

JenifaTaughtMe · 03/10/2023 02:58

He will use his speech to the Conservative Party conference in Manchester on Tuesday to announce a consultation on changes to the NHS constitution.

"Consultation" 😒

I'm not getting my hopes up about this to be honest.

PriOn1 · 03/10/2023 05:49

Well I am pleased to see that the word woman has been inserted back onto various NHS advice pages. They haven’t changed much - most of it is in the recent styles, so still aimed at “you” and saying “anyone who has ovaries” but the word women, essential for understanding the demographic these illnesses affect, is there, right at the top:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ovarian-cancer/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/menopause/

Though they haven’t got round to changing them all yet. Something to watch, perhaps.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pelvic-organ-prolapse/

Close up of a woman holding her lower abdomen in pain

Ovarian cancer

Read more about ovarian cancer, including symptoms, treatments and causes.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ovarian-cancer/

yogasaurus · 03/10/2023 05:53

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

Nope. That’s a man.

popebishop · 03/10/2023 05:55

Interesting because the two, legislation informing guidance, must match.

If your guidance doesn't match your legislation, that's transguidance.

ResisterRex · 03/10/2023 06:05

It's been going on since 2006!!!

Filth and shame in an NHS hospital

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ba61a3d6-73d5-47d3-ba69-571419ff92e5?shareToken=2abb64dc20107bf2a82a5d1680df5b7e

WarriorN · 03/10/2023 06:41

It occurs to me that if a big fuss is made of this by TRAs it will only highlight it more to the public who aren't aware of what being trans often actually means in real terms.

ResisterRex · 03/10/2023 06:46

I had a similar thought about party conference season, Warrior. Do Labour respond to these announcements or ignore them? They'll be under pressure to say they will go against them if elected.

Helleofabore · 03/10/2023 07:05

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

Extreme body modification decisions still do not mean that this male person should access female single sex spaces. But I think you realise this.

There does seem to be a lack of understanding though, about the needs of women and girls. Have you thought about how rarely male people are not detected as male. Sometimes instantly, sometimes it takes longer. So, putting them into a female bay means that women and girls can be re-traumatised or be distressed by the lack of privacy.

The solution was never to put those male people into a female space. As others pointed out, which other vulnerable male people should be protected by being put into the female space? None. They are out into areas where they are more protected.

Once you start to unravel the emotive reaction that seems to be associated with a male who has had their cock and balls removed and have breast development, it becomes clear that they are still male. By the exact same logic, all the people who have other extreme body modifications should be treated similarly. The men who are cats, lizards and snakes should be put where, in zoos! I mean no one would go to all that trouble to appear as a snake complete with a forked tongue if they weren’t a snake.

This is how the logic would be used in directly comparative examples. So the answer is to appropriately safeguard those patients as happens with other vulnerable patients.

Society in general needs to stop treating women as being just boobs, an orifice for a penis and a feeling. Having boobs and no cock is no reason to put a male into a female single sex space.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/10/2023 07:16

I dont t think they have a hope of an actual “ban”. Consultation first, then drafting guidance, repealing article 9 etc

what they are doing though is bringing more sunlight to the issue. The majority of ppl in this country will almost certainly not know hospitals write guidance for staff inspired by stonewall training telling them that legally they have to put TW on women’s wards when they have to do no such thing.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/10/2023 07:17

This is great news. I hope its comes into force immediately. Tragic it took rapes to get here though.

Imo things like this should be a condition of transition. In that anyone transitioning should be told from the very beginning that no one is obligated to validate them im any way shape or form and they are to abide by the same rules and social contracts as anyone else.

So go ahead present how you want. But the hospital wards and the patients in them are not participants in your identity.

Let's see how many actually bother once forced to comply with sex based rules, laws etc

Maaate · 03/10/2023 07:20

So the comfort and distress of males with boobs is more of a priority than the comfort and distress of the females who have to share a space with them.

Just so we're clear on where things stand.

AvacadoFieldsForever · 03/10/2023 07:20

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

Would a 13 year old with a cervix be safe going into a men’s ward?

A pregnant 18 year old in a men’s mental health unit?

A nan of six in a men’s rehab clinic?

We desperately want people to be safe and to get great healthcare but we can’t start from the lie that people can change sex or that sex doesn’t matter.

LizzieSiddal · 03/10/2023 07:26

Another interesting headline here.

Apologies, I don’t subscribe to The Times at the moment, so can’t click on the article, does anyone have a subscription?

Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards
ReeseWitherfork · 03/10/2023 07:30

jlpth · 03/10/2023 00:24

I do feel sorry for someone I know, who is M to F trans and has had bottom surgery (ie has no penis) and additionally has had surgery to get boobs. Although born male, she would pose no risk to women/girls. On a male ward, she could easily be gawped at/worse as she has boobs and all the bottom surgery.

it’s a difficult problem, but there definitely should not be anyone capable of rape (ie who has a penis) on a women’s ward.

There is definitely nuance needed in a handful of cases. (Which let’s face it, may be more than a “handful” if the world keeps going on its trajectory.)

I wouldn’t be comfortable on a ward with a TM who had a penis. Using single side rooms seems like a solution on the surface but would need to be managed appropriately in reality as these are often used where there is an additional medical need including for infection control.

It’s a shame that a standard NHS ward doesn’t offer much privacy and dignity, and doesn’t provide a great deal of personal safety.

GodDammitCecil · 03/10/2023 07:34

All the reporting on this down our way is using the word ‘gender’, not ‘sex’.

So I am not getting too excited about this. If wards are to be same gender, that’s absolutely meaningless. Since people with penises can say they’re women and then be put on women’s wards.

I’d like to think it’s a move in the right direction, but I’ll reserve judgment.