How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

So that’s a yes!

Ok, so you guys can give a little.

The McGuffin, perhaps.

None of us are guys.

Thank you!

As for the paramedic: just to be sure I understand you @godessofthunder if a male paramedic is allowed into a ladies toilet to, say, administer CPR and we're OK with that...

You think that is a chink through which beard Dave from Accounts can squeeze when he says he's in "girl mode"

Is that your latest, hilarious, "gotcha"?

I did not see the one about mesh.

I have seen numerous male posters though attempt to cajole permission from women using the same tactics as godes. I mean, moving along very similar scripts and always showing that they have no fucking idea what female people use the toilets for. It is always 'we just want to pee', while we are saying we use toilets for so many things that are not 'peeing' so no you cannot use the toilets because you have misogynistically decided all women do there is pee.

Plus we have seen numerous male posters declare they pass and that they are 'post op' and should use female sex spaces. And a few times, well more than zero times is too often actually, they then end up abusive towards posters for restating boundaries that will not be lowered for them, the special male people.

How many of those male posters though agree that other male trans people should be excluded from what they now consider 'their' space? A too large a % of them, frankly.

That is why there is no middle ground.

Because there seems to be a hierarchy in the trans community. With some male trans people declaring themselves deserving of entry into female single sex spaces and seeking to exclude other male trans people.

And when you see this, you never can unsee it. It proves a point that there can never be a solution to satisfy some male people and not others.

It is rare but we do get some male trans posters who do come and post saying that no they don't use the female single sex spaces. But I also remember them being attacked by other male trans posters for their stance.

And again, once you see that in action on a thread, you can never unsee it.

@GodessOfThunder channeling Jimmy Savile is brave.

No, not if it's this Paramedic.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-59518773

Exactly. They're all McGuffins. Operation: LetMcGuffinSpeak.

How many of those male posters though agree that other male trans people should be excluded from what they now consider 'their' space?

Exactly. We've had every reason under the sun. If you transitioned a long time ago, if you pass, if you look pretty, if you've had the op, if you're harmless, if it depresses you not to. Blah blah blah.

Although a curry fan with spectacular diarrhoea, who just suffered an horrific injury, is, er, novel.

Scraping through the bottom of these at quite a rate. Might need a new delivery.

I would treat this desperate male transitioner the exact same way I would treat any adult male desperate for the toilet.

You may take that any way you like.

Can you explain why a male transitioner should be treated as less in need or more in need than another adult male?

I presume Goades understands that if there is a medical emergency the room, be it lavatory or changing room, will cease to function as such until the patient is removed, hence the temporary lapse of its exclusive single-sex use.

Here's a freebie! If a woman is assaulted and badly injured in a lavatory by a man who has entered it, it becomes a crime scene, and male teccies and cops will be able to enter it to record and process the evidence. No women (except teccies and cops) will be able to enter for the duration.

No, you were the one going on about chopped off penises when you asked about 25 times whether a prohibition on male people in women's spaces should apply to someone who is "post op".

Our position is that the same rule should apply to all males regardless of what they may or may not have done to their genitals.

The question of "genital inspections" only arose because we pointed out that this would be the only way to tell the difference between a male person who is "post op" and a male person who has a penis.

We don't want to perform genital inspections. We don't want to see anybody's genitals. We just want to use the toilet, in peace, without any male people present.

"Is that your latest, hilarious, "gotcha"?"

I think it is.

I think this is supposed to somehow highlight that women are ridiculous for having boundaries that exclude male people. This is supposed to be someone saying 'look at those ridiculous women saying they wouldn't let a male paramedic through...' which is a straw man argument.

Maybe godess missed this post from today.

Piccalillipromises · Today 10:32

I've got two scenarios where a male could legitimately be in the women's toilets:

1. Someone in the toilets needs urgent medical attention and the attending paramedic/first aider is male.

2. The toilets need cleaning/maintenance and the staff member responsible is male. But in this case I'd expect to see one of those yellow signs warning you left outside while they were in there.

But that certainly doesn't then make it ok for any old male to stroll in any time it takes their fancy.

Yes. The explosive gastro distress is rather fantastical one could say...

Yes, whilst I would sympathise with their predicament, a curry fan with spectacular diarrhoea is the last person I would want to share toilets with.

I apologise for taking Robbie Burns' words out of context but the bottom line is:

'A Man's A Man For A That.'

Quite, it's never a drop dead gorgeous Adonis handing out free money and carrying a copy of The Female Eunuch.

And yes, Thunder, the answer is still no. 😁

if you barred them I suppose they could mount a dirty protest outside, so that’s something I guess

scat consolation though.

Or even Dylan Mulvaney who always has a tampon on hand to lend to any woman who may be caught short.

Actually, that was you.

"What if they’ve had their male genitals chopped off by a surgeons knife?"

On page 9.

Before that, there was one reference before that about surgery where a poster used it as an example of the progression of how male trans people's demands had moved, from those who completed surgery having access to self ID. And one poster who posted an excerpt about a transexual person's recollection that they had to confirm in a statement that they knew that they did not change sex before a surgeon would operate on them (before the magical thinking pervaded and the demand that if a male person declared they were a woman then they were a woman.)

You on the other hand, intoduced this as a 'whatabout' scenario and have been doubling down on the 'whatabout' scenario for days.

Or had you forgotten? It was just another one of your arguments that have been shown to be without merit.

I see what you did there.

Pretty sure a dirty protest outside would be illegal though.

In any case, why aren't they using the men's toilets again?

https://thecritic.co.uk/are-they-taking-the-piss/

You seem very ill informed. The Pissed Off Trannies (their own choice of name) have already desensitised the world to excrement being a fetish. The seem to have found it rather stimulating.

So, your threats of a shit protest is not new.

Oh... hang on.... there was at least one man in that latest San Francisco Pride event that had shit scrawled in a political slogan across their back. And there was a blow up wading pool there where adult males were pissing on other adult male people in public and caught on film.

And who can forget the shit fetish trolls that pop up on MN other boards and get off before the mods can delete them.

Yeah... your threat of a shit protest seems rather irrelevant.

This is the perfect cue to Educate any undecided lurkers on The Right Side of History's delightful methods of demanding attention:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4628118-protest-at-ehrc-hq?

Oh, @Helleofabore got there first!