How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Thanks for this. I know where our next team dinner is going to be now.

Me too!

"PP got their jollies and is off."

They will be back though. That was a sure sign that this was a game to them. They came back after nominating how many girls and women they reckon would have been acceptable collateral per year. No mature adult who wanted to protect women and children would have ever said this and after saying it, would never come back to the thread as if nothing happened.

There is either no self awareness, or a completely detached consciousness, or a heavy investment, or a determination to paint trans allies as incompetent and now deranged, or a very false sense of superiority or a combination or all of these at once. Or something else.

This has been someone thinking they were mindfucking FWR.

But seriously, we have seen this before. It is nothing new but some readers will have not seen this before so there is that benefit.

And I am not denying that Kucing is spot on. When I read the post about leaving babies prams outside the cubicle, I realised what we could have been dealing with. All posts since has led to this being increasingly true. That initially there was a heavy investment in 'sticking it to the haters', which turned into wheedling for consideration for a particular group and then it became a game.

Quite.

Always so telling. As is framing the violation of women's boundaries as a 'win'.

The India Club has dosa! My favourite.

But alas no vindaloo. I love vindaloo, but egg just doesn't seem to cut it for me.

Chilli Bhajias!

I think I might make an egg curry for lunch. Delia has a nice recipe

really looking forward to lunchtime now!

'If HE was desperate for a number 2'.

Men who want to use women’s safe spaces have self defined as dodgy - men who we defo don’t want there.

Decent men ( however they identify ) see women as human beings with their own rights to safety, decency and privacy . They understand that women have the legal and and moral right to say no and they don’t seek to take these rights away.

Even if they personally are the most lovely human being ever to have walked on the face of the earth, they know that women are not psychic and can’t see into their soul.

And they also know that letting some “ special” men into safe spaces with women and children is a perverts’ charter . They know exactly what kind of men would do that.

So they are very happy that men as a class are excluded . They care about women and children as a class, not just their own sister / niece / mum. They see them as fully human, they want them to be safe.

The men who don’t want in are the ones who are the least risk to women and children. And the ones who want in are the ones we need to worry about.

Just like some on this thread.

This is no longer good faith.

It never was in good faith RedToothBrush.

Come on MN, wind up the women, all so totes hilaire

It's a pathetic attempt to wind us up and isn't working Theeyeballsinthesky, it does bring oodles of sunlight though so there is an upside. What a way to spend your time though, pitiable really.

Absolutely.

Even 12, 13 year old boys understand they may alarm women in some situations, and the good ones take steps to avoid that.

and 12 1nd 13 years old boys have already tasted the joy of talking smut to bully females Pa's out, Ma's out, let's talk rude, curried eggs, genitals, drawers . . .

I may have forgotten the exact quotation

A Flanders and Swan reference, @DeanElderberry! Kudos.

No. They. Are. A. Man. And. They. Don't. Pass.

You have been told.
There aren't any.

Someone's definitely wallowing in the mud, anyway.

prance round the changing room in the nude, curried eggs, calipers, drawers . . .

Let's write rude words all over Mumsnet

Lick our lips at the reactions we get

Shout crude abuse at the women we meet

Let's have an intellectual treat!

Curried eggs, lesbians, drawers . . .

Thank you GodessOfThunder, you have convinced me.......

* There is no middle ground.

* Repeal the GRA.

"Several times I have used male toilets when there has been a massive queue for the ladies. I suspect most people have at least once."

Let's write this another way.

'Several times I have ignored male people's boundaries when there has been a massive queue for the women's toilets and I either couldn't be arsed waiting or I didn't have a true emergency where if I explained to women in the queue they would have let me though. So I did it anyway. I felt entitled to do this and want others to agree that it was ok.'

or

'I am male so several times I have used the male toilets when there has been a massive queue for the ladies and I got out of there without being attacked. But I just want to use the female people in the female toilet for my own reasons.'

"Several times I have used male toilets when there has been a massive queue for the ladies. I suspect most people have at least once."

Alternatively, here is a newsflash........

A female presenting person used a male single sex toilet without incident! This then proves there is no danger to male people who adopt a female presentation in using the male single sex toilets!

Thank you so much godes for your community service in providing the anecdotal evidence needed for all male people to go back to using the male single sex toilets regardless of how they present!!

No further discussion needed. Godes took a chance and did some research and it is now all clear and there is no danger. There probably never was, but that is a whole different story.

Why aren't men fighting back about trans men using their toilets? Can't think why that might be 🧐

There was one poster here who was told no. Dear lord, the lengths they went to, including suggesting mesh over the top of each cubicle to prevent men peering over. They went on for almost as long as thunder.

They just don't take no for an answer. Grown adults!

And yes, we had the usual risible nonsense of butch lesbians and a non existent DSD.

But meshing the bogs was a new one!

Thunder must be the latest in what? Hundreds of people, mostly men, who view women's value purely in terms of their service to men.

It's depressing really.

Of course, neither I, nor many women here are actually talking to thunder. That's completely pointless. My reason for posting is to talk to everybody else - and the Lovely Lurkers of course. And to let thunder expose transactivism. Thunder themself is just the cipher.

Medical emergency as someone mentioned above in the ladies loos. Paramedic is a bloke. Can he enter the loos?

Come on…..you’ve got to let him in, no?

Lol. Scraping scraping.