How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Lol

No. We were the ones who said that none of that was relevant as we can distinguish between men and women no matter how they present.

Another lie. We pointed out that women can tell fully clothed males from females from a distance in seconds or less based on hundreds of features.

Are you unable to understand the words you read or just convinced that your fantasies are more true that actual reality?

dean

I don’t disagree with you so much as I think the game playing is clear. They haven’t lost face at all because I suspect this is a game.

I laughed when I read this poster on another thread state that their aim is to level the playing field and to point out privilege. Because again, it seems all performative. I doubt this poster understands privilege. They don’t seem to recognise the privilege in their own posts. There is nothing there, just performance .

You could well be right about the educational background. However, there is a dissociative element here that is really worrying considering there is supposedly a child involved.

There are many reasons that posts come across as dissociative, of course. Sometimes, it is trauma based. Many times it is not.

I think that we are close to the full list of what abouts. The only one left is taking small boys into the Ladies'.

I love Godess because they are a bright spotlight on what The Right Side of History is really supporting. I wish they'd post their full set of "arguments" on the main boards. In fact, I think we should compile all their posts into a column in The Guardian. Might be educational and enlightening for a few readers.

For the benefit of undecided lurkers, this thread is also a live demonstration of how some male people experience frissons of, um, enjoyment, in causing any kind of reactions in female people. The pursuit of these frissons tends to escalate, requiring more frequent doses and more intensive stimulus.

Sound familiar?

No one knows you’re a dog on the internet as the saying goes

This guy is a 14 year old Latvian boy or some fat 30 something American guy living in his mum’s basement, or some couch surfing incel unable to form any meaningful attachment with women, or none of those

the one thing he isn’t is whatever he says he is

if you’re enjoying interacting with him then crack on, but just bear in mind that he’s baiting us

love the daily-mail esque level of cod-psychoanalysis.

Just because you may not like the truth, doesn’t mean that it is not true that many women can reliably detect sex of a person with rather high accuracy. Not 100% but high enough.

By the way, also doesn’t include women who pretend and go along with letting a male person believe they have not been correctly sexed. There are many reasons for that but some of those are ground in fear of what will happen if the male person knows that the female person has discerned that persons sex.

This presence is used by some male posters who visit these threads to support their ‘passing’ ability. It must be a cruel thing to have once believed that female people believed that they, the poster, was a girl or woman but now have to doubt everyone around them. But it is the reality.

The fact godes couldn’t come back with anything but denial that women can most often tell the sex of a person using cues from movement, proportions etc is telling. If any reader is interested, I suggest they read up on facial feminisation operations. That involves the shaving down of eyebrow ridges, the lowering of hairline (even in men without receding hairlines), the change of width of the nose and often the bridge shape, the narrowing of the gap between nose and top of lip and the sharpening of the ‘bow’ at the top of the lip (and lots of artificial fillers), cheek implants and then they move to the jaw, and neck. The jaw bone is shaved and the Adam’s apple. Sometimes they do the voice box as well.

The entire face has been rolled back and the bone structure modified. It is indeed extreme. And looking at Mulvaney, success rates at producing a ‘passing’ face is still low.

That this poster keeps going back to the fact we posted that female people from babies up have higher accuracy than male people in correctly sexing a male. It may mean it rankles, or that they themselves cannot or have trained themselves to not detect with the same high accuracy so, if they can’t others can’t either.

Please keep the denials up godes. However, your denials aRe completely irrelevant to the material reality.

I find Godess's contribution both enlightening as well as frustrating.

Enlightening because it clearly shows the anti women foundation in transgender ideology. There are literally no arguments why some men should be allowed into womens facilities and others not and it clearly demonstrates harm to women should be acceptable so men have freedom of choice whilst women get none. Misogyny is not a bug here, it is a feature.

Frustrating because of the one sentence responses that do not even engage with the posts being quoted. I mean come on, my toddlers could argue better than this.

But OP, thank you for this thread. If anyone ever says can there be a compromise between trans demands and womens rights, this has clearly demonstrated the answer is can only be no, unless you rate women as second class with less rights.

People with DSDs have repeatedly asked not to be dragged into this, and for people not to use the word intersex. This is crass provocation for the sake of it.

But as pp have probably already said: female people with DSDs are welcome in the women's toilet. Male people with DSDs, not so much

No. Because when people use the correct (for their biological sex) toilet, we all know that we only encounter other women there. And it is good for a 10 year old to know that some women look different (see also old women, disabled women, women in hijabs, women in heels and make up...)

FFS. I did not see this one.

Fuck the offensiveness just keeps rolling. Now women who have medical conditions have been thrown down as a comparator for allowing male people access to female single sex spaces.

Because this poster cannot understand it is not about what a person wears, or if they have facial hair, or even genitals.

It is about all male people respecting female people. About the fact that some female people will be distressed by a male person’s presence in a space where they are vulnerable. And so any male who respects female people will find other solutions to their needs rather than cause that female person distress.

It is quite clear, yet again, that this poster has only a performative concept of respect as well . It just keeps coming.

It's obviously a game, although the constant rule-changing and goalpost shifting would make many people stop playing, but it has done an excellent job of illustrating why we need genuinely female-only spaces. And why there's no middle ground position on that.

Whether there's a middle ground position on anything else I don't know. I still haven't read anything that makes me believe that a sense of gender (either in an individual or at a wider societal level) is anything other than a mental aberration that certainly doesn't need universal acceptance of stereotypes in order to facilitate it.

Sex otoh is real

What if a passing trans person was really really desperate - say, they’d had an egg vindaloo the night before - and the male toilet cubicles were all in use. Would you still not let them in - not even once?

this thread is increasingly weird.

Actualy shitposting. Reported.

FFS. Are you using this board for a whataboutery game on Reddit or twitter or something ?

Or are you deliberately trying to make trans allies look ridiculous for some reason?

It is now like being botted with the most ridiculous whatabouts ever!

EXTREME SEALION ALERT!

(I mean some allies are ridiculous! No denying that!)

This reminder seems apposite.

It’s a reasonable question. We are discussing whether there are any circumstances in which a trans person could enter a ladies loo.

We have discussed many scenarios and “being desperate” is a totally legitimate one. Several times I have used male toilets when there has been a massive queue for the ladies. I suspect most people have at least once.

does that mean you would deny access and let the person defecate on themselves?

Just for reference this poster has posited this scenario.

“What if a passing trans person was really really desperate - say, they’d had an egg vindaloo the night before - and the male toilet cubicles were all in use. Would you still not let them in - not even once?”

And now:

“does that mean you would deny access and let the person defecate on themselves?”

Can you imagine the social media meltdown -

Mean Mumsnetters would allow a transwoman to shit their pants rather than let them use the female toilet!

Would any women allow an ill male into the female toilets?

So your answer is “no” but you are too scared to post it.

FFS