Page 24 | How do we find a middle ground?

Namechange2468109 · 2023-09-30T17:01:36+00:00

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people. What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman? I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life. We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man. The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’ The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage. But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book. How do we rationalise this? Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 17:13

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 04/10/2023 17:12

If you're intimidated by a flasher, it's because you're a woman in possession of a fully functioning brain.

Godess is not.

extract
Police “could have saved Sarah Everard” if they acted more quickly on reports of Wayne Couzens flashing McDonald’s staff days before, one of his victims has said.The serving Metropolitan Police officer targeted women at a drive-through restaurant near his home, where he would order cheeseburgers and then expose himself at the serving window.Couzens had been caught on CCTV driving to the restaurant using his own car, which was registered in his name, and used his own credit card to purchase food.

From ^www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sarah-everard-wayne-couzens-flashing-victim-b2294906.html^

Edited

Flashing is about power control and intimidation.

And as pointed out, it's gateway stuff.

It's not 'minor'.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/10/2023 17:14

This is quite a good summary of Michael Crick making a twat of himself earlier today, and airily brushing aside Miriam Cates’s suggestion that women deserve privacy and dignity

apparently men who enjoy role playing as women have ‘often gone through a lot of stress’

https://www.gbnews.com/politics/trans-hospital-ban-slammed-steve-barclay

Helleofabore · 04/10/2023 17:20

Namechange2468109 · 04/10/2023 16:55

Glaringly. It’s an incredible own goal from Thunder et al

Show quote history

Namechange once you see the motivations, it is hard not to harden your thoughts on this issue. Because on threads such as yours, posters come and they post stuff that is based on emotional manipulation and little else. We have seen that they cannot answer questions, cannot provide the evidence to support their claims based on that emotional manipulations

If these supporters could argue consistently and, probably more importantly, coherently, then there would be very interesting discussions to be had. But it is like a script. And quite a well rehearsed one by now. New supporter posters come along and they don't understand that we have heard all these views before and have found not one of them is convincing.

Yet, those posters are supposedly convinced OR so heavily invested because of different reasons that they feel they HAVE to keep repeating misinformation and making false comparisons, crossing into misogynistic, racist and homophobic territory to defend a position that the vast majority of the UK population don't agree with and is completely unsupported by evidence. At all.

I hope that you have found the interactions on this thread helpful to get your head better around the issues.

All I can recommend for you, and for other readers, is to keep asking the hard questions. Keep searching for evidence yourselves and read, read, read and evaluate critically every single thing you read. Regardless of who has written it.

Original poster

Namechange2468109 · 04/10/2023 17:44

Helleofabore · 04/10/2023 17:20

Namechange once you see the motivations, it is hard not to harden your thoughts on this issue. Because on threads such as yours, posters come and they post stuff that is based on emotional manipulation and little else. We have seen that they cannot answer questions, cannot provide the evidence to support their claims based on that emotional manipulations

If these supporters could argue consistently and, probably more importantly, coherently, then there would be very interesting discussions to be had. But it is like a script. And quite a well rehearsed one by now. New supporter posters come along and they don't understand that we have heard all these views before and have found not one of them is convincing.

Yet, those posters are supposedly convinced OR so heavily invested because of different reasons that they feel they HAVE to keep repeating misinformation and making false comparisons, crossing into misogynistic, racist and homophobic territory to defend a position that the vast majority of the UK population don't agree with and is completely unsupported by evidence. At all.

I hope that you have found the interactions on this thread helpful to get your head better around the issues.

All I can recommend for you, and for other readers, is to keep asking the hard questions. Keep searching for evidence yourselves and read, read, read and evaluate critically every single thing you read. Regardless of who has written it.

Show quote history

In all honestly my eyes were fairly well open to most of it but still tried to think (and to a certain extent still do) that there are some genuine Trans out there. It appears the huge minority in todays climate, and like posters have mentioned how do we tell (other than callipers!!) and the risk is too large.

I am saddened for the minority few who really don’t want to be caught up in this, some who actually appear fairly GC and acknowledge they aren’t women. But feel more comfortable presenting as such.

I try to refrain from delving into Reddit too much as it makes me uncomfortable, however earlier today I saw a thread about a bloke who transitioned to a ‘Woman’. He got a breast augmentation but now wants to wear binders. Not because he has regrets it (allegedly) but he wants to look like a ‘butch dyke’.

Apparently this is now a thing as well, and seems like yet another growing trend. When will this end? It genuinely doesn’t make sense anymore. I don’t know anyone else who spends so much thought process on their outward appearance. Fuck knows how they have the time/money.

OP posts:

CowboyJoanna · 04/10/2023 17:53

Transvestites never pretend to be the opposite sex. They were upfront about being mere drag queens and butch lesbians.

MavisMcMinty · 04/10/2023 17:55

It genuinely doesn’t make sense anymore.

It makes no sense, none at all. The very definition of nonsense. Upside down, inside out, backwards nonsense, that crumbles on contact with sunlight and oxygen. It must be why for so long it was all #NoDebate and #BeKind and #TWAW. It doesn’t bear examination.

GailBlancheViola · 04/10/2023 17:59

@GodessOfThunder if you are arguing for males post op to be in female single sex spaces it is up to you to provide the evidence to support it,

Secondly, very few transexuals have full surgery (approx 90%) retain their male genitalia their version of post op is having artificial breast implants.

Surgery is no a pre-requisite for a GRC so using that as a baseline won't cut any ice.

Either way pre or post op they are still male and males of any description are neither wanted or welcome in female single sex spaces, they should never have assumed a right of entry in the first place.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 18:13

MavisMcMinty · 04/10/2023 17:55

It genuinely doesn’t make sense anymore.

It makes no sense, none at all. The very definition of nonsense. Upside down, inside out, backwards nonsense, that crumbles on contact with sunlight and oxygen. It must be why for so long it was all #NoDebate and #BeKind and #TWAW. It doesn’t bear examination.

Oh it does make sense.

"Women have no idea how much men hate them."

Helleofabore · 04/10/2023 18:20

Namechange2468109 · 04/10/2023 17:44

In all honestly my eyes were fairly well open to most of it but still tried to think (and to a certain extent still do) that there are some genuine Trans out there. It appears the huge minority in todays climate, and like posters have mentioned how do we tell (other than callipers!!) and the risk is too large.

I am saddened for the minority few who really don’t want to be caught up in this, some who actually appear fairly GC and acknowledge they aren’t women. But feel more comfortable presenting as such.

I try to refrain from delving into Reddit too much as it makes me uncomfortable, however earlier today I saw a thread about a bloke who transitioned to a ‘Woman’. He got a breast augmentation but now wants to wear binders. Not because he has regrets it (allegedly) but he wants to look like a ‘butch dyke’.

Apparently this is now a thing as well, and seems like yet another growing trend. When will this end? It genuinely doesn’t make sense anymore. I don’t know anyone else who spends so much thought process on their outward appearance. Fuck knows how they have the time/money.

Show quote history

Yeah. Reddit seems to be a complete hell hole on this topic. I cannot believe that those kinds of posts are even real. Yet, there are SO many now that some have to be. Usually it is the ones from female transitioners that make me so concerned. They post and they don't even see the abusive nature of their situation, that THEY are being abused.

But yes, there are people out there who acknowledge that they are still the sex they were born and who are not using female single sex spaces and don't seem to get upset regarding pronouns and having their sex referred to. It is sad that they have been caught up here. But then again, where were they when all these changes were being demanded initially? Were they complicit and involved and only realised later what they had been involved in? Or did they allow these demands to grow to the degree that laws and policies were changed and they did nothing to mitigate it by saying 'not in my name'? I don't know and I am not sure I want to know.

The end result is all I am now interested in. That the rights for female people are not deprioritised for those demanded by a group of men.

DeanElderberry · 04/10/2023 18:30

The experiences of a young female transitioner was what moved me over from 'let them do what they want' to 'this is WRONG'. Seeing a physically healthy, unhappy, highly intelligent ASD person reduced to a physical wreck with snowballing health complications - and still unhappy - is heartbreaking.

GailBlancheViola · 04/10/2023 18:33

Okay, we are repeatedly told that TW cannot possibly go into the male spaces because of safety and feeling uncomfortable, even though there is zero evidence of any TW coming to harm in the male spaces. That is zero, zilch, nada just emphasising this for the poster who will only accept prosecutions/convictions.

So let's just turn around this statement from Godess:

I’d say if it’s less than 100 minor offences (like exposure) a year we’re ok. There has to be a cost to everything to ensure freedom. 100 offences by post-op transsexuals might be a reasonable threshold. It’s very unfortunate that any take place but we have to be realistic.

How about:

TW accessing the correct toilet for their sex, let's say less than 100 minor offences (like exposure) a year we’re ok. (Bear in mind there are NO recorded incidents whatsoever to date, unlike for women) There has to be a cost to everything to ensure freedom. 100 offences by males towards TW might be a reasonable threshold. It’s very unfortunate that any take place but we have to be realistic.

Got a problem with that @GodessOfThunder ? If so, why?

Helleofabore · 04/10/2023 18:44

GailBlancheViola · 04/10/2023 18:33

Okay, we are repeatedly told that TW cannot possibly go into the male spaces because of safety and feeling uncomfortable, even though there is zero evidence of any TW coming to harm in the male spaces. That is zero, zilch, nada just emphasising this for the poster who will only accept prosecutions/convictions.

So let's just turn around this statement from Godess:

I’d say if it’s less than 100 minor offences (like exposure) a year we’re ok. There has to be a cost to everything to ensure freedom. 100 offences by post-op transsexuals might be a reasonable threshold. It’s very unfortunate that any take place but we have to be realistic.

How about:

TW accessing the correct toilet for their sex, let's say less than 100 minor offences (like exposure) a year we’re ok. (Bear in mind there are NO recorded incidents whatsoever to date, unlike for women) There has to be a cost to everything to ensure freedom. 100 offences by males towards TW might be a reasonable threshold. It’s very unfortunate that any take place but we have to be realistic.

Got a problem with that @GodessOfThunder ? If so, why?

I am keen to hear this answer!

Datun · 04/10/2023 18:54

Namechange2468109 · 04/10/2023 17:44

In all honestly my eyes were fairly well open to most of it but still tried to think (and to a certain extent still do) that there are some genuine Trans out there. It appears the huge minority in todays climate, and like posters have mentioned how do we tell (other than callipers!!) and the risk is too large.

I am saddened for the minority few who really don’t want to be caught up in this, some who actually appear fairly GC and acknowledge they aren’t women. But feel more comfortable presenting as such.

I try to refrain from delving into Reddit too much as it makes me uncomfortable, however earlier today I saw a thread about a bloke who transitioned to a ‘Woman’. He got a breast augmentation but now wants to wear binders. Not because he has regrets it (allegedly) but he wants to look like a ‘butch dyke’.

Apparently this is now a thing as well, and seems like yet another growing trend. When will this end? It genuinely doesn’t make sense anymore. I don’t know anyone else who spends so much thought process on their outward appearance. Fuck knows how they have the time/money.

Show quote history

He got a breast augmentation but now wants to wear binders.

it's the fetishisation of women's biology. It knows no bounds.

One man wanted to have a uterus implant so he could get pregnant and then have an abortion.

Some fetishes are not within the realms of sanity. And they escalate.

ApocalipstickNow · 04/10/2023 19:01

Yes @GailBlancheViola we are told transwomen are so in danger in the men’s but according to our new friend it’s ok if “only” 100 TW are assaulted- I mean I’d say that’s too high and another solution should be found/ but then I’m not a TRA willing to sacrifice everyone else for men to get what they want 🤷‍♀️

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 19:17

Why was Jesus male?

I mean it's women who have to do all the sacrificing all the time, it clearly breaks the trend when a man does it.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 04/10/2023 19:24

Maybe @GodessOfThunder will answer a different question - how does removing a man’s penis make him female? How do the surgeries and hormones change his skeleton to a female one, or his dna to female dna, or his endocrine system to a female one? Or is it truly as simple as this - all it takes to be female is to lack a penis? Can doctors change male chromosomes into female ones? Can anyone?

Sadly the facts, the science, the biology all say that you cannot change male dna or chromosomes, or skeleton or endocrine system into female dna etc. All you can do is have plastic surgery, take artificial hormones and LARP womanhood.

GailBlancheViola · 04/10/2023 19:27

Steady on there RedToothBrush Jesus must have been a TW, or possibly A WOMAN because he had long hair and wore long dress type robes 'n' all.

In all honesty I am surprised Jesus hasn't fallen prey to the transing of historical figures mind you they do tend only to do that to famous women, funny that.

GailBlancheViola · 04/10/2023 19:29

He got a breast augmentation but now wants to wear binders.

it's the fetishisation of women's biology. It knows no bounds.

One man wanted to have a uterus implant so he could get pregnant and then have an abortion.

Some fetishes are not within the realms of sanity. And they escalate.

People with these fetishes should be undergoing serious mental health intervention not being feted on social media.

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 20:27

Datun · 04/10/2023 16:49

As is the refusal to explain how we are supposed to be able to tell whether a fully clothed trans woman has had genital surgery or not for the purposes of granting or not granting access to women's spaces.

I often get the impression that the whole purpose of that two and fro is to make us agree in theory, that post op would be ok.

I believe there is a validation to be had from the theoretical acceptance of post-op transwomen. Even though they know full well there's no practical way of implementing it.

There's a need to prove that post op transwoman are different somehow. Hence the only argument is that they can't actually rape. There's zero acceptance that for most women, it's irrelevant.

and absolutely no understanding, whatsoever of the concept of women saying no, because they want to

Show quote history

I really don’t understand why the TRA-adjacent campaigners think “what about post-op?” is such a gotcha.

The TRA narrative is that the males who have their penis and testicles surgically removed are doing so because it will improve their life and make them happier. In other words they have agency and are choosing to have the surgery to benefit themselves. Then alongside that narrative, we have the TRA-adjacent campaigners’ emotional manipulation of “Ahhh, the poor dears, they’ve had surgery, they should instantly be given everything they ask for! How could you women be so churlish as to want to retain your right to privacy and dignity from the opposite sex when in a state of undress, if it means someone who’s just had unnecessary surgery for their own benefit has to hear the word ‘no’?”

So which is it?

If having surgery is being promoted as a positive and as a human right, and marketed as “affirming care”, and the person has had surgery to make themselves happier, why has their choice got anything to do with women or any implications for woman’s lives and rights? and why is access to women in a state of undress being treated as some sort of consolation prize that women owe to males who’ve had surgery?

My guess is that the TRA-adjacent campaigners are using post-op as a shorthand for: “but what if they really really mean it? You can’t say no to the ones who really really mean it” as the start of a goalpost shifting maneouvre.

GodessOfThunder · 04/10/2023 20:31

“dignity” is hardly an objective concept.

Britinme · 04/10/2023 20:33

It's rather more objective when assailed than an inner sense of gender that a non-biologically based claimant can't possibly have a realistic basis for.

GodessOfThunder · 04/10/2023 20:38

Britinme · 04/10/2023 20:33

It's rather more objective when assailed than an inner sense of gender that a non-biologically based claimant can't possibly have a realistic basis for.

Doesn’t change that fact it’s a loose concept that doesn’t hold much weight in terms of argument

Britinme · 04/10/2023 20:40

So you're clear that an "inner sense of gender" is a loose concept unfit to base an argument on? Good to know.

GodessOfThunder · 04/10/2023 20:41

Britinme · 04/10/2023 20:40

So you're clear that an "inner sense of gender" is a loose concept unfit to base an argument on? Good to know.

Lol

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 20:42

GodessOfThunder · 04/10/2023 20:31

“dignity” is hardly an objective concept.

You told us that, for you, it would be acceptable for 100 women to be the victim of a sexual offence if it means that males who want access to opposite sex facilities and to women in a state of undress getting what they want.

So, yeah, please do lecture us on objectivity and impartiality. Oh, and on what dignity women may be permitted or not permitted to have, in pursuit of the convenience of the male sex.