How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Yes, I mean I make typos all of the time - but not on my username.

I'm guessing, and it's just a hunch, that thunder has some kind of vested interest.

He said it on GB news.

Go to twitter search Michael Crick. You'll get the video pop up pretty bloody quickly.

That's respected broadcaster and journalist Michael Crick for anyone wondering. Him of BBC and C4 news fame.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crick

The constant boundary pushing is so creepy

<shudder>

I posted this on another thread this morning. How many women do we think that male has impacted, annually?

Testimony from FDJ, Former female offender, England

“Being in prison with male prisoners, you always feel on edge. You know something could happen at any time. We know they are not women. They are physically threatening and aggressive. I was sexually assaulted and I am not the only woman who has been. They haven’t had surgery and they expose themselves. One of them had been told he couldn’t shower at the same time as us women. He made a formal complaint and said this was a breach of his human rights. So now he is allowed to shower with us. And because he now has that right, the other males have that right too. There’s only a shower curtain between us. He moves the curtain so we can all see his penis when he is washing himself or shaving his legs. This is disgusting and I think it is disgusting that the prison allows this.

We can’t complain about anything. They are very well protected and it feels like our rights as women just don’t count. We have to call them ‘she’ and ‘her’ and have to use their female names. If we don’t, we are punished and lose our enhanced prisoner or D-Category status. It is horrible to do that to women.

I am very upset that I lost my legal case. I can’t understand how anyone can say that imprisoning males alongside women is the right thing to do. The prisoner who attacked me was convicted of the most serious sexual offences against girls and still has his penis. How can the government say that putting him in prison with women is the right thing to do? It’s not. I am out of prison now. But I think about all the other women still in prison who have to live with these males. This is dangerous, disgusting and wrong.”

Women In Prison Speak Out

I guessed this as well. Hence the very obviously emotional manipulation for us all to make allowances for 'post-op' male people.

And not one shred of evidence or logic that supported any of that emotional manipulation. The fuckwittery that was posted on this thread would seem like a head fuck for any reader who had not seen it before. The twisting and the constant whataboutery. And nothing to support it.

The complete lack of coherent thought or critical thinking along with the emotional pleas and manipulation is always a key sign that there is no good faith involved. And usually a heavily invested interest as you say.

The focus on "post op" is so disingenuous.

As is the refusal to explain how we are supposed to be able to tell whether a fully clothed trans woman has had genital surgery or not for the purposes of granting or not granting access to women's spaces.

But for the record, having your penis removed does not make you a woman. Having her penis removed is not something any woman has ever done.

Agreed.

I think we have past the point of 'good faith' debate.

It's clearly not.

And we should treat accordingly.

"I’d say if it’s less than 100 minor offences (like exposure) a year we’re ok. There has to be a cost to everything to ensure freedom. 100 offences by post-op transsexuals might be a reasonable threshold. It’s very unfortunate that any take place but we have to be realistic."

I am just posting this here for posterity. Because we know that posters can withdraw their posts.

Posted by GodessOfThunder Today at 15:58.

Thank you for showing the world what you really believe.

There does seem to be a lot of sexualised fantasy around Goadess's post op trans people - [edited in - STRAIGHT MEN] having sex with them, people examining their genitals, using calipers on them. Maybe s/he should get a room.

As for supposedly straight men wanting to have sex with a post op transwoman - I do think that for some transsexuals, who are homosexual in orientation, that is the ultimate fantasy. That a straight man will fancy them. They don't want gay men. They want to feel 'like a real woman'.

There is a whole genre of porn devoted to this fantasy and I do think it is true that there may be some straight men that get off on trans porn, who are open to meeting up with a transfemme or post op TW on hook up sites.

I could not believe that someone posted that a woman was someone who a heterosexual male would have sex with.

I mean.... that is seriously fucked stuff there. We have seen it before, of course. But this takes some seriously head fuck to believe this. If someone has convinced someone that they are a woman because their sexual partner self identifies as a heterosexual male, that is some fucking abusive stuff right there.

I imagine for some TW motivated by AGP, a straight man fancying them would be the ultimate validation.

As is the refusal to explain how we are supposed to be able to tell whether a fully clothed trans woman has had genital surgery or not for the purposes of granting or not granting access to women's spaces.

I often get the impression that the whole purpose of that two and fro is to make us agree in theory, that post op would be ok.

I believe there is a validation to be had from the theoretical acceptance of post-op transwomen. Even though they know full well there's no practical way of implementing it.

There's a need to prove that post op transwoman are different somehow. Hence the only argument is that they can't actually rape. There's zero acceptance that for most women, it's irrelevant.

and absolutely no understanding, whatsoever of the concept of women saying no, because they want to

I think I prefer it when they're at least honest and admit they prioritise men's special feelings over women's safety.

It’s obvious Godess is an under-bridge dweller, but I just wanted to say that the single time I was the victim of male “exposure” was the most frightening few minutes of my life, and I include being held under seige in a Beirut school basement overnight while shots were fired repeatedly at the building.

Before it happened to me I thought “flashing” was a bit of a laugh, it was so ubiquitous in the 70s, very Benny Hill, but it’s actually intimidating and terrifying when it’s just you and him on an deserted railway platform after a late shift at work.

If Godess wasn’t just trying to wind up women on this thread, he would not dismiss “exposure” as a minor inconsequential inconvenience that 100 women a year should just put up with and shut up about.

But Godess is just playing here. No real person could come out with that stuff.

Lol

Yes,hence his obsession with having his genitals inspected.

Glaringly. It’s an incredible own goal from Thunder et al

Well India, a postop tw was highly pissed off that that straight chap, Ginuwine, was it? on Big Brother, rebuffed India's advances.

And Juno Dawson is very fond of claiming that their boyfriend is straight.

It stands to reason that if some men transition because of internalised homophobia, they'll want to consider their boyfriends as heterosexual.

That's very frightening. Truly.

But Godess is just playing here. No real person could come out with that stuff.

Yeah. Always at the expense of women, isn't it.

What’s he hoping to achieve though?

Because from here he looks like a one man peaking machine

maybe it’s just for attention

Apart from Michael Crick. On TV. Today.

Men really do hold this view.

That's how much they value and respect women.

I don't think they are a bridge dweller though they may have been acting the goat.

This is an established poster on other parts of MN. But then again, someone might have been posting that is not the user themselves. It is hard to know.

If you're intimidated by a flasher, it's because you're a woman in possession of a fully functioning brain.

Godess is not.

extract
Police “could have saved Sarah Everard” if they acted more quickly on reports of Wayne Couzens flashing McDonald’s staff days before, one of his victims has said.The serving Metropolitan Police officer targeted women at a drive-through restaurant near his home, where he would order cheeseburgers and then expose himself at the serving window.Couzens had been caught on CCTV driving to the restaurant using his own car, which was registered in his name, and used his own credit card to purchase food.

From ^www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sarah-everard-wayne-couzens-flashing-victim-b2294906.html^