Page 9 | Trans: the new ideology of the ruling class (article)

Kucinghitam · 27/09/2023 09:04

I love how the Righteous poster has shone blazing sunlight on how The Right Side of History operates. A previously interesting discussion thread, derailed. More, please! The sunlight, it's so beautiful.

#OperationLetThemSpeak

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 09:12

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2023 08:13

'I don't think...'

It's always about belief. And the I bit. The inherently selfish nature of this whole argument where the impact on others isn't acknowledged.

Why should other people's beliefs be imposed on others?

If we follow the principle of respect for others and their beliefs what should happen?

Women who want single sex spaces should have them. Transwomen should respect the single sex spaces and keep the fuck out of them. And women and transwomen who believe in gendered spaced or gender neutral spaces can piss away in them to their hearts content.

But no. Just because men believe they can become women, women's beliefs can be trampled all over. And transwomen want to use women to validate themselves.

The point being that an empty women's toilet is just a toilet - it needs a woman to make it a women's toilet. And they are being used, often without consent, to validate the feelings of males.

And it's not just about womens beliefs either. There's plenty of research on single sex spaces and how they are safer for women and why they are recommended in the developing world.

There is the privacy and dignity argument too.

Not to mention how some women don't actually have this luxury of choice, if others decide to piss wherever they like because their religion and community makes this dangerous for them to do so. So they self exclude and lose freedom.

All the arguments about transwomen using women's toilets are about how it's too dangerous to pee next to men - but women aren't allowed to use this argument. Or that impinges on their dignity and privacy - again women aren't allowed to use that argument.

But this is just ignorable to some arrogant dick who comes along to illustrate the point in the original post about entitlement and argues the point.

What it comes down to is that women pushing this and transwomen railroading this, have absolutely no respect for anyone but themselves and think others feelings are below contempt.

We see you.

Show quote history

All of this.

duc748 · 27/09/2023 10:38

Bloody hell, @untranchable ! I read most of the first page... 😡

I had no idea. I suppose I should have guessed.

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 10:43

duc748 · 27/09/2023 10:38

Bloody hell, @untranchable ! I read most of the first page... 😡

I had no idea. I suppose I should have guessed.

It would serve these people right if they gave themselves a nasty infection.

Original poster

PorcelinaV · 27/09/2023 10:47

Yeah, that's some "NSFL" content right there. I only read a small amount. Perhaps it got worse.

OP posts:

duc748 · 27/09/2023 10:54

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 10:43

It would serve these people right if they gave themselves a nasty infection.

Show quote history

Yes, absolutely! Which would be quite possible, I imagine.

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 10:58

duc748 · 27/09/2023 10:54

Yes, absolutely! Which would be quite possible, I imagine.

Show quote history

I was thinking of bacterial infections but if you were really unlucky you could probably give yourself HIV doing that.

Original poster

PorcelinaV · 27/09/2023 11:02

Things like that encourage me to think that men are just hard-wired in a different way to women.

OP posts:

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:09

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:05

Yeah, I totally disagree.
I’m gender critical, but we currently live in a world where gender matters a whole lot. People should be able to find their comfort within that.

Show quote history

I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

What do you mean by " gender matters a whole lot". Can you give some examples?

And what do you mean by. " people finding their comfort within that?

My reading of that is that you think women should have to cope with their feelings of discomfort or threat and somehow vanish them away because that's just the new reality. Sort of like women need to 'up their game' and 'get with the show.'

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:16

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 22:42

That’s really, really wild and unusual ! Most would be very taken aback to see a naked woman washing herself in a toilet sink.

Have you never been arrested or had someone come to check on you for that ?

Show quote history

I had reason to go in to a women's toilet last week. I had a stone in the foot of my tights and needed to go into the ladies to take my tights off and remove it.
It might sound trivial to you - but I think most women would feel uncomfortable lifting their skirt and removing their tights in the presence of strange men.

Women's toilets exist for reasons of privacy and dignity as much as anything. There are many reasons a woman may use a toilet facility - and most of them have some connection to her body, and particularly her sexed body.

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 11:19

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:09

I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

What do you mean by " gender matters a whole lot". Can you give some examples?

And what do you mean by. " people finding their comfort within that?

My reading of that is that you think women should have to cope with their feelings of discomfort or threat and somehow vanish them away because that's just the new reality. Sort of like women need to 'up their game' and 'get with the show.'

Show quote history

You forgot "reframe their trauma".

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:20

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 22:54

People should use the toilet which feels most sensible and natural. I don’t think we should be so uptight about it.

Show quote history

Whether or not you think other women should feel "uptight" or not is not relevant. Most women do feel more comfortable and safer in single sex spaces in certain types of situation. Usually when they are dealing with the functions of the body - which in all people is sexed.

You should campaign for additional gender neutral facilities rather than imposing your moral judgemnts about how other should or should not feel. that way everyone could get their needs for comfort and dignity met.

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 11:21

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:20

Whether or not you think other women should feel "uptight" or not is not relevant. Most women do feel more comfortable and safer in single sex spaces in certain types of situation. Usually when they are dealing with the functions of the body - which in all people is sexed.

You should campaign for additional gender neutral facilities rather than imposing your moral judgemnts about how other should or should not feel. that way everyone could get their needs for comfort and dignity met.

Show quote history

Yes, why can't trans women just be less uptight about using the numerous facilities which already exist for people of their own biological sex?

Or doesn't it work that way round?

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:22

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 22:56

Hardly! I’m a radical feminist.

Show quote history

You ae not a feminist if you think sex is irrelevant. Feminism is based on women's rights and dignity as adult human females.

Feminism centres women.

ArabellaScott · 27/09/2023 11:23

That's what I can never understand. Why does a transwoman's desire to use the women's space matter more than a woman's desire for a single sex space?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/09/2023 11:26

a person using the word ‘uptight’ is such a massive red flag

it’s only ever used by people who want you to change your boundaries

ArabellaScott · 27/09/2023 11:26

Why is it women who must change their position to accommodate men?

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:26

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 23:05

And I think you’re really oversimplifying what a gender can contain. I am a woman, but I’m a very masculine woman in many ways.

What you are calling 'gender' is just individual differences in personal characteristics. Women are varied in personality, characteristics and expression - the onlyb thing they all have in common with each other is the fact of their sex and the consequences of this sex in their daily life and in their culture or society.

Gnder role differences between cultures exist everywhere , but always what remains, in every culture, is a demarcation between the sexes based on biological function and characteristics.

RavingStone · 27/09/2023 11:26

Yeah, I totally disagree.
I’m gender critical, but we currently live in a world where gender matters a whole lot. People should be able to find their comfort within that.

This is a very confused position! I'm sure it's in good faith, but there is a remarkable uptick in "I'm GC, but" style posts on MN. Mostly going on to scold feminists for lack of decorum or asking for their needs to be met in the wrong tone of voice.

But anyway, do you understand what being critical of gender means? It means rejecting the sex based stereotypes which are foisted upon humans in all societies, to greater or lesser extents.

The people enforcing the stereotypes can traditional conservatives: one modifies one's personality to match one's sex.

Or neo liberal trans activists: one modifies one's body to match one's personality.

The feminist position rejects both and believes any body can have any personality. No behaviour modification or 💲 surgery 💲is required.

You seem to be implying that "gender mattering a whole lot" is a modern issue?!! It is the means by which males have sought to control women since the dawn of history. Not a lot of "comfort" there.

duc748 · 27/09/2023 11:28

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/09/2023 11:26

a person using the word ‘uptight’ is such a massive red flag

it’s only ever used by people who want you to change your boundaries

unless you're Stevie Wonder, of course; he gets a pass.

Original poster

PorcelinaV · 27/09/2023 11:30

I don't think I have ever read anyone on mumsnet however who is anti trans or hates them or wants English law changed back to before you could change gender legally via the English (not Scottish) way

I think either way is commonly rejected around here. It's a change of sex and so you have falsified official documents. If I'm correct, it encourages intact males into women’s prisons, as just one issue with it.

Personally I think there are very rare cases of DSD where it may be appropriate. Like if someone actually has been assigned the wrong sex at birth, which could maybe happen in a developing country with less advanced medical care.

With DSD people may still be male or female, but maybe there are some ultra rare cases that I would have sympathy with letting someone change their documents.

OP posts:

RavingStone · 27/09/2023 11:30

Ooh are we going to have a masculinity contest?

Hope so because being the irrelevant and unfuckable side of 40 has brought me several new chin hairs.

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:34

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/09/2023 11:26

a person using the word ‘uptight’ is such a massive red flag

it’s only ever used by people who want you to change your boundaries

And maybe also by peole who have already had their boundaries trampled in earlier life, and now think this is how life is supposed to be. I'm thinking of the many women who have suffered sexual abuse as children and then go on into prostitution or to 'perform' in pornography, seeing this as a way to take back control in some way.

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 11:35

RavingStone · 27/09/2023 11:26

Yeah, I totally disagree.
I’m gender critical, but we currently live in a world where gender matters a whole lot. People should be able to find their comfort within that.

This is a very confused position! I'm sure it's in good faith, but there is a remarkable uptick in "I'm GC, but" style posts on MN. Mostly going on to scold feminists for lack of decorum or asking for their needs to be met in the wrong tone of voice.

But anyway, do you understand what being critical of gender means? It means rejecting the sex based stereotypes which are foisted upon humans in all societies, to greater or lesser extents.

The people enforcing the stereotypes can traditional conservatives: one modifies one's personality to match one's sex.

Or neo liberal trans activists: one modifies one's body to match one's personality.

The feminist position rejects both and believes any body can have any personality. No behaviour modification or 💲 surgery 💲is required.

You seem to be implying that "gender mattering a whole lot" is a modern issue?!! It is the means by which males have sought to control women since the dawn of history. Not a lot of "comfort" there.

Spoiler: it was not in good faith.

RebelliousCow · 27/09/2023 11:36

Being confronted with a larger male body in an intimate situation of vulnerability is an inherent threat for women and girls. You are no longer in control of what happens next, and are totally dependent on the good will and good nature of the man you are with.