Trans: the new ideology of the ruling class (article)

[PorcelinaV]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/09/25/trans-the-new-ideology-of-the-ruling-class/

If you were raised in that culture, you'd do as a female person does there, making you a woman there and a man here.

If being a woman or being a man is purely defined by comparing your behaviour according to external cultural norms, then it has to follow that whether you are a man or a woman changes as you cross national borders.

This was your premise.

Me, I think that a woman is an adult human female, no matter what she does or wears, so I don't have this problem.

No, I listed that as a reason why someone would not want to do something.

That’s really, really wild and unusual ! Most would be very taken aback to see a naked woman washing herself in a toilet sink.
Have you never been arrested or had someone come to check on you for that ?

Where are women supposed to deal with period flooding, in your opinion? Its what the women's toilets are for. You don't think its appropriate (you're in a minority) so what's you solution?

The cubicles are there for a reason.

You wouldn't want to do it, for both your own and others benefit right?

Well even if you're comfortable, you still need to think about other people's benefit.

You don't deliberately do something that causes a lot of social awkwardness.

No, that’s not my premise. I have my own culture’s perception of gender, that doesn’t instantly shed when I enter this imaginary country.

My own understanding of my womanhood is very much tied in with my biology, having been raised a girl and treated like a girl / woman by those around me my entire life. It is different for others.

I will add that it definitely has more to do with having been treated like a woman than anything physical.

The sinks are not in the toilet cubicles, and when you have period flooding you need to wash. I suspect you think 'period flooding' is getting a bit of blood on your legs which you can wipe off with toilet paper.It really isn't.

Nope. You'd be living as a man in their society, which makes you a man.

You said, "living as a woman in our society makes you a woman".

This is the logical consequence of that premise. If comportment to social roles defines your sex, then that has to be a universal rule, no matter the nation. Your personal opinion on it is irrelevant and your attachment to your previous status in the country 3000 miles away would be immaterial.

Are you actually taking the piss?
It would be strange and awkward for tw to be in the male toilets but not strange or awkward for women to be confronted with men dressed as women when they are trying to piss?
Can you even hear yourself?
Plus men sexually assault women, so it's not so much single sex as safe for females. After dignity which applies to men too.

Me, I think that a woman is an adult human female, no matter what she does or wears, so I don't have this problem.

It just used to be that simple, didn't it? And it still is.

I was reading this thread in fascination, and awe at some of the insights, but unfortunately it has become very dull.

Yeah, a success derail, I am sad to say.

Ok. I'm not asking for a quippy phrase, or everything about a woman. You can tell what I'm asking by the words I used to ask.

When you use the word woman, are you talking about a person that is different from a man in literally any single way? If so, can you say one single way in which such a person is different from a man?

Remember, I do not understand what you mean when you say "woman", so you can't simply repeat that. "Woman" to me means female which you say is wrong.

It really seems to me that you do actually mean "female" but are not honest enough to say so.
Or you are not honest to say "person who has long hair" or "person that likes cats" or "person who wears certain clothes" or "person who played with dolls as a child" or whatever it actually is that, to you, is the distinguishing factor between women and men (yes these examples are odd but I have no idea what you mean by "woman" if not "female".

You seem quite equadious about this issue - would you say that's accurate?

I agree Minty, and to me it smacks of a not dissimilar lazy tribalism to the type O'Neil is attacking. There's a line between logically dismantling an argument, and just gleefully attacking an enemy. How is continuously banging on about "The Woke" going to do anything but increase tribalism?

Sometimes I wonder if people who enjoy seething over the evil Wokes realise how much they sound like the people seething over the evil Transphobes. There's a point where honest rebuttal can tip into the temptation to construct straw men to make the enemy sound even more ridiculous.

That's why I ducked out.

That person claimed to be gender critical and then later a radical feminist, whilst trotting out all the basic TRA tropes, refusing to define a woman, saying it was about more than being female but refusing to say what, and coming out with the most absurd double standards that anyone actually arguing from a be kind perspective would be ashamed and embarrassed to say out loud (e.g. if you don't think trans women should be using women's toilets you don't think they should be allowed to exist, but women who need single sex spaces are free to stay home).

My guess is they were just here to derail the thread and ideally provoke people into using banned acronyms or breaking the no troll hunting rule.

Yes it's a shame - I made my comment about anti-Woke tribalism just as a TRA arrived to exercise tribalist arguments. I did lol when he/she proclaimed to be gender critical but also that gender is SO important and affects EVERYTHING. Talk about a tell.

I mean, gender critical beliefs are the literal opposite of what that poster believes. We think that gender isn't important and sex is.

But then I suppose a proponent of gender identity theory identifying themselves as gender critical makes no less sense than a male person identifying themselves as female. They live in topsy-turvy land and it's safest to assume that anything they say might be the literal opposite of what they actually mean.

And that, for me, encapsulates why I can't vote for any party which supports this belief system. I wouldn't have a problem with politicians saying things like, "Trans people are very vulnerable and we must support them." Or if they said, "It is very important for trans people to be legally recognised as the sex they identify as rather than their sex recorded at birth, the current process for doing this is too long and arduous and must be simplified", I fundamentally disagree with that because I believe the Gender Recognition Act is bad law, but I respect someone's right to express an opposing point of view in a sensible way. But when you have mainstream left and centre-left politicians saying, "trans women are women, no debate, and yes this applies to prison too", or saying that it is factually inaccurate and wrong to say that only women have a cervix, we are out of the realms of civilised disagreement and well into dystopia. Voting for people who want to criminalise telling the truth strikes me as an incredibly stupid thing to do.

It is very simple to me - biological women should be allowed their own spaces for these kind of private things. Also if someone is trans there is usually a disabled toilet they can use so they do seem to make a lot of fuss about this kind of thing. Biological women will not be shutting up about these issues where they damage or harm women or their rights so we trans people affronted by that will just need to learn to live with it.

I don't think I have ever read anyone on mumsnet however who is anti trans or hates them or wants English law changed back to before you could change gender legally via the English (not Scottish) way.,

Predictably #OperationLetThemSpeak demonstrated the usual tropes of "you don't know any trans people, don't like trans people, can't recognise trans people, don't think they should exist," oh and toilets (again)
The lack of any intellectual arguments about why men become women when they say they are etc is stark. I agree with @MargotBamborough, politicians are massively responsible for shifting society "out of the realms of civilised disagreement and well into dystopia".

'I don't think...'

It's always about belief. And the I bit. The inherently selfish nature of this whole argument where the impact on others isn't acknowledged.

Why should other people's beliefs be imposed on others?

If we follow the principle of respect for others and their beliefs what should happen?

Women who want single sex spaces should have them. Transwomen should respect the single sex spaces and keep the fuck out of them. And women and transwomen who believe in gendered spaced or gender neutral spaces can piss away in them to their hearts content.

But no. Just because men believe they can become women, women's beliefs can be trampled all over. And transwomen want to use women to validate themselves.

The point being that an empty women's toilet is just a toilet - it needs a woman to make it a women's toilet. And they are being used, often without consent, to validate the feelings of males.

And it's not just about womens beliefs either. There's plenty of research on single sex spaces and how they are safer for women and why they are recommended in the developing world.

There is the privacy and dignity argument too.

Not to mention how some women don't actually have this luxury of choice, if others decide to piss wherever they like because their religion and community makes this dangerous for them to do so. So they self exclude and lose freedom.

All the arguments about transwomen using women's toilets are about how it's too dangerous to pee next to men - but women aren't allowed to use this argument. Or that impinges on their dignity and privacy - again women aren't allowed to use that argument.

But this is just ignorable to some arrogant dick who comes along to illustrate the point in the original post about entitlement and argues the point.

What it comes down to is that women pushing this and transwomen railroading this, have absolutely no respect for anyone but themselves and think others feelings are below contempt.

We see you.

On the off chance that anyone was convinced by our ‘gender critical as they come but living as a woman makes you a woman’ visitor

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

we used to be allowed to know that if a man goes into a place where women are in a state of undress, he’s there to have a perve in some way

they still want to have a perve. We’ve just got people like our visitor trying to persuade us to pretend otherwise

to quote South Korean feminists, my life is not your porn

I'm not sure that that is accurate.

On the off chance that anyone was convinced by our ‘gender critical as they come but living as a woman makes you a woman’ visitor

Im a radical feminist but believe that you should pee where you feel comfortable was quite the claim wasn't it?

What's the definition of a liberal feminist again?

There's a much worse reason why some of these men demand access to the women's loos 🤢