Trans: the new ideology of the ruling class (article)

[PorcelinaV]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/09/25/trans-the-new-ideology-of-the-ruling-class/

good article

That’s right – the ‘inappropriate behaviour’ belongs not to the hulking bloke making his way into a woman’s toilet, but to the woman who says, ‘Back off, love’. This is a rank moral inversion.

the whole thing is eminently sensible but that seemed most so to me

Agree re "woke"

Much like the concepts of intersectionality, feminism and LGBTQ, I don't think it was coined to centre society's most powerful demographic. And yet increasingly now, it does.

It woudl be a pity if it became class based. I am a Tory Remainer for example. I am in favour of freedoms - not something Labour or the Tories were keen on during Covid. Like most people I am a mixture of views not pigeonholed into one box. I have never had any problems with trans people but do not want their rights trumping women's rights - real women.

I am all in favour of trans rights and delighted that trans people already have the same rights as everyone else.

None of the things we are discussing are rights, however.

A boundary is a statement about your own actions, what you are willing to do, to engage or not engage in.

What you want is to control what other people do. That’s different.

Me expressing that I don’t want any blonde women using public toilets is not a personal boundary.

We don't have toilets segregated by hair colour.

A boundary is a statement about your own actions, what you are willing to do, to engage or not engage in.

No, a boundary is the mark of your limits of how you are willing and able to let others treat you or approach you.

A male, insisting on entering a space where a woman is undressing, and she is not consenting to his presence and experiencing this as a major breach of her privacy and dignity, not to mention additional reasons such as trauma, disability, faith, culture and belief, is yes, violating her boundaries.

In order to meet his own needs. Which is to use her in this space. Whether as a prop or a validation tool or for any other means is irrelevant: he wishes to make use of her and does not see her consent as relevant or her humanity as equal to his.

I mean how many boundaries do you want violated in one action? There are multiple there.

In fact the question has to be asked: why, when the situation is someone wanting to break the boundaries of a woman to meet their own needs, with all the disregard for her feelings and sense of safety that involves....

would that be phrased as the woman being wrong for having boundaries that the male dislikes?

As opposed to the male having a major failure of all social skills, having no respect or empathy for the woman at all, and putting up a number of red flags? People who dislike other people's boundaries generally do so because they find them inconvenient barriers to illtreating the person in the way that they want to.

Yes. You do not own public toilets.
How you are willing to let others treat you or approach you, not a public space.

Anyone entering a private space, like a cubicle, while someone is undressing is of course a violation. But when you are walking around a public space naked you are consenting to the possibility of someone seeing you. You don’t get to choose who, it is a public space.

A single sex public space is designed for the privacy, dignity and accessibility of women.

You are arguing to remove those women's rights to not be used by men. Your beef is that men aren't getting what they want from those women.

It's an interesting but rather grubby pov really. And certainly a rather male supremacist one.

If it is a single sex space you are only consenting to sharing that space with members of your own sex.

This is why single sex spaces exist.

Since when were toilets ever described as ‘single sex spaces’ before all of this commotion. You just went into the men’s or the ladies.

I can promise you I am the opposite of a ’male supremacist,’ I am a lesbian, every person close to me is a woman.

The reality is you would be equally unhappy to see a big, hairy trans man in there. Where do you expect these people to piss?

Well, there's nothing big about trans men for a start. They're the same height we are. And I'm more than happy to share my space with the very hairiest of women.

.. you should see some of the guys I’ve met ! Testosterone and weight training does a lot.

What height are we? Out of curiosity? I’m in a family of very tall women.

This high.

And men stayed out of the ladies, and didn't expect women to abandon all their needs and accept that men went where they wanted, did what they wanted and used women as they wanted. I miss those times.

It's a shame you're not more focused on the needs of women then as opposed to seeing the main issue being women having boundaries and consent issues that inconvenience men who have no respect for women.

I’m quite a bit taller than the average male on that graph. What does that mean for me in terms of public toilet use? Will my height be a problem for you?

99% of the time we can tell full well what sex a trans man is. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I met someone like Elliot Page in the women's toilets.

Until very recently the social contract ensured that people followed social conventions and the law. Men didn't enter women's single sex spaces, it was accepted that children should be safeguarded from age inappropriate sexual issues etc. Women felt free to challenge a man invading a space where they were undressing, naked, using the toilet etc. All evolved from Victorian times as tools to allow women to play a full part in society.
Now we appear to have a new brand of Victorians - mainly men but as we sometimes see on here, women too - who openly argue that women have no rights to privacy, dignity or safety from unknown men or single sex sport etc.

It's a very regressive approach that dismisses the needs and rights of a range of protected / vulnerable groups, but the new male supremacist Victorians (male & female) are relentless in their pursuit of removing women's rights to boundaries, safety, sport and the rest.

That's because until about five minutes ago we all understood that women are female people with vaginas and men are male people with penises and if you had said anything to the contrary everyone would have thought you were completely fucking insane.

It means if you start talking about big hairy transmen, then they are unremarkable on the spectrum of female height distribution.

What the hell are these ‘needs’? And why do they involve making it awkward for trans people to pee when out shopping?

I feel like you have not hung out with many trans people in real life. They are the opposite of ‘men who have no respect for women.’

And I promise trans people were peeing in public back then too.

There are toilets for male people and toilets for female people everywhere you go. Everyone is either male or female.

We are not the ones who have made it awkward for trans people to pee when out shopping, that is all in their head I'm afraid.

I fully support the provision of third spaces, but I'm a bit worried that we could go to an awful lot of effort and expense to provide them and trans people still wouldn't use them. Because what they want is to be in spaces for members of the opposite sex.