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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tragic suicide

195 replies

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/09/2023 00:19

Channel four news spent long time talking about the suicide of a young person ( male ) who killed themself because of not receiving gender affirming surgery when they wanted it. Obviously distraught parents seemed to think that that should have had whatever it was, affirming their son was their daughter and interviewer calling them she throughout.nothing about treating the depression which was underlying. Did not touch the area of what exactly GAS is. I have no idea what they meant…the only thing that was interesting was that they were discharged at 18 from the gender identity clinic, because of depression ( I think that was stated), Would this now be a counter indication for surgeries I wonder?

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Helleofabore · 15/10/2023 16:29

I really expect we will be eternally disappointed there …. I suspect it will not be a long term study and even if it is a long term study it will not include the hugely significant female adolescent cohort because they won’t be included in ‘long term’ studies yet so relevance can be also questioned considering the pivot in affirming only treatment has also been recent.

But let’s see.

Kilopascal · 16/10/2023 15:23

I worry very much, Helleofabore, that years down the line, about the same number of people from this hugely expanded cohort will be happy with their transition as from the earlier tiny group. Meanwhile, if the overall transitioner numbers have risen fourfold (is it around that?), they must have been sweeping up kids who previously would have coped with their ordinary bodies. So we could see >75% regret rates.

God, what a mess. Poor kids.

PorcelinaV · 16/10/2023 16:12

MishyJDI · 15/10/2023 11:31

And what are those actual facts? That 98% of people who transition have a better outcome? From the few trans people I encounter that all seem rather happy and do their best to fit in, and live their life. I embrace the diversity and celebrate it.

Let me take a guess...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext

"720 people were included, of whom 220 (31%) were assigned male at birth and 500 (69%) were assigned female at birth. At the start of GnRHa treatment, the median age was 14·1 (IQR 13·0–16·3) years for people assigned male at birth and 16·0 (14·1–16·9) years for people assigned female at birth. Median age at end of data collection was 20·2 (17·9–24·8) years for people assigned male at birth and 19·2 (17·8–22·0) years for those assigned female at birth. 704 (98%) people who had started gender-affirming medical treatment in adolescence continued to use gender-affirming hormones at follow-up."

You are confusing this with evidence of a "better outcome"?

If a 16 year old girl is still on drugs 4 years later, it really doesn't tell us that much.

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 19:17

A mother who recently lost a trans child to suicide has apparently been doxxed and harassed on social media by gender critical people and the police are apparently being involved.

OldCrone · 16/10/2023 19:22

PorcelinaV · 16/10/2023 16:26

What trans-activists will try to argue from this:

https://transequality.org/blog/get-the-facts-the-truth-about-transition-related-care-for-transgender-youth

"This means that the overwhelming majority of young people who take medications that delay the onset of puberty are indeed transgender"

What do they mean by "are indeed transgender"? Are they claiming that these young people were literally born in the wrong body? Or is there something else that means that it's appropriate to say that they "are indeed transgender"?

JanesLittleGirl · 16/10/2023 19:23

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 19:17

A mother who recently lost a trans child to suicide has apparently been doxxed and harassed on social media by gender critical people and the police are apparently being involved.

That sounds absolutely terrible. Please could you share your source so that we can all condemn it?

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 19:25

JanesLittleGirl · 16/10/2023 19:23

That sounds absolutely terrible. Please could you share your source so that we can all condemn it?

I am unwilling to do that given the overall anti-trans tone of the board. The fact this thread exists may be insensitive and inappropriate IMO.

Kilopascal · 16/10/2023 19:52

Stephannee, do you mean that naming this young person and their parents here is doxxing and harassment?

I don't agree, if so. It's discussion of whether, given this young person died post-transitioning, earlier transition is the answer.

There was a post-transition suicide fairly near us a few years back. Again, it's hard to know whether a long wait was a contributing factor, or an incorrect level of medication, or simply the realization that nothing makes one actually change sex.

Froodwithatowel · 16/10/2023 20:18

As seen in today's court case, there is no way that any women are permitted to talk about crucial issues at all without being accused of being in the wrong tone, insensitive and inappropriate.

It's nothing more than an attempt to silence the sinners and hide the many, many issues with this faith.

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 20:50

I agree with what's being said here :(

Tragic suicide
ArabeIIaScott · 16/10/2023 21:26

Froodwithatowel · 16/10/2023 20:18

As seen in today's court case, there is no way that any women are permitted to talk about crucial issues at all without being accused of being in the wrong tone, insensitive and inappropriate.

It's nothing more than an attempt to silence the sinners and hide the many, many issues with this faith.

Absolutely.

ArabeIIaScott · 16/10/2023 21:31

If people are going to make arguments about health treatments based on references to suicide then I'm afraid suicide is going to be discussed.

This case is in the news for exactly that reason.

Thingybob · 16/10/2023 23:15

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 20:50

I agree with what's being said here :(

It's very sad that another child has recently died and I imagine everyone on here (that is aware) has nothing but empathy and sympathy for the mother and the family.

I saw the original post by the mother and I agree there was some blunt, unkind remarks but from what I saw they came from males situated in the US. I haven't seen any of the high profile GC Twitter users comment nor has it been mentioned on here.

Thingybob · 16/10/2023 23:17

Sorry I meant to add, please don't confuse us with the dregs of Twitter

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 23:42

That's true, there are plenty of male GCAs too, including far-right men in the US.

DarkDayforMN · 17/10/2023 00:18

Sorry I meant to add, please don't confuse us with the dregs of Twitter

Of course they are going to keep doing that - honesty, humanity and respect be damned - because lies are all they’ve got. There’s no point in requesting basic decency from someone who’s founded their entire worldview on a lie, when the lie is crumbling all around them.

IcakethereforeIam · 17/10/2023 01:19

It's not like they care about this poor child and their family when they're gleefully trying to use them to castigate people on a forum that has nothing to do with X.

Stephannee · 17/10/2023 01:43

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20231017003835/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713651778787418470" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20231017003835/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713651778787418470

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20231017004047/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713664071860355199" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20231017004047/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713664071860355199

Here's one of the "gender criticals" maliciously harassing a grieving mother who lost her trans child to suicide. I hope the police throw the book at them.

LGBT LIVES MATTER

IcakethereforeIam · 17/10/2023 01:52

Ghoul.

SpiderMaam · 17/10/2023 02:11

Stephannee · 16/10/2023 20:50

I agree with what's being said here :(

If you truly believe Mumsnet is full of transphobes, why on earth would you bring this mother’s tragic bereavement to the attention of posters here?

unless you don’t give a shit about this woman at all and just want to use her dead child as a metaphorical stick to beat uppity feminists with?

SpiderMaam · 17/10/2023 02:19

This is not a GC feminist account, this is some random shitposter with 24 followers, probably a 4channer teenager.

Do you ever stop and think before you post misinformation?

Tragic suicide
Tragic suicide
Tragic suicide
Helleofabore · 17/10/2023 03:39

Stephannee · 17/10/2023 01:43

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20231017003835/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713651778787418470" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20231017003835/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713651778787418470

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20231017004047/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713664071860355199" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20231017004047/twitter.com/YamnayaBoi/status/1713664071860355199

Here's one of the "gender criticals" maliciously harassing a grieving mother who lost her trans child to suicide. I hope the police throw the book at them.

LGBT LIVES MATTER

The hypocrisy here is two fold tonight. A poster who claims to be supportive of trans people has just politicised a tragic event for their own purpose. While also then mischaracterising the abuser as being ‘gender critical’ when any one seeing the account can see it is a purely trolling account. I can’t see anything on there except trolling tweets. Yet the account is being used to characterise people who are, in this poster’s eyes, ‘gender critical’. (I am assuming GCA is gender critical activist)

This shows a distinct ignorance about what the term gender critical actually means. Extreme trans activists use this tactic regularly.

So here goes for any reader who hasn’t caught on to what this poster and those extreme activists have done.

The term ‘gender critical’ was first used as the term ‘gender critical feminist’. More specifically a feminist who rejected gender roles and gender stereotypes. Who incidentally also believed that sex cannot be changed in any human being.

For those who seek to abuse feminists for their stance, extreme trans activist in this instance, the feminist was dropped from the term. They did this because they then wanted to lever in an overwhelmingly huge number of people from different groups with very different, in some case opposite, motivations under the term they now made into an umbrella term. Many of those groups being wedged in were politically motivated by right wing objectives and some were extreme right wing. For instance, this troll account posted in this quoted post seems to be posting nazi supportive content which may be part of their trolling activity or it may be their belief, either way, it is abhorrent.

So with the term feminist removed, and the term being used by extreme trans activists being just the ‘gender critical’ part, the term has now lost all meaning. Because now reasonable people are expected to believe that feminists are allied with Nazis and with groups who have the opposite political aims of feminists, all because people with weak or nonexistent logic have abusively changed the term to make this now huge grouping of people ‘aligned’.

The only thing that ties these groups together is the universally held belief that sex cannot change in humans.

This has been proven and well established in science for a very long time. This is despite a group of people who are desperate for others to believe it is possible and actively using emotional manipulation to convince others it is possible.

Loosely, it could be said that the groups wish to prevent laws and policies from prioritising gender over sex where sex matter. However, any person looking beyond the very superficial labelling of each campaign point would see that the end outcome sought likely differs. Because the motivations differ. Only someone who is ignorant of the political aims of these groups OR ignorantly seeking to force team them portrays the outcomes as being shared.

Many of those groups wedged under this now huge umbrella, believe in gender stereotypes and gendered roles. Hence, they render the term ‘gender critical’ meaningless.

In fact, it could be said that using the same logic that those extreme trans activists who rely on gender stereotypes and gender roles for the definition of themselves are closely aligned with those very same groups they have tried to shame and silence feminists with.

So on one hand, feminists are supposedly aligned with the ‘far right extremists’ through believing the scientifically proven fact that humans can not change sex. And hypocritically, on the other hand, those activists using the term ‘gender critical’ as a term of abuse such as seen on this thread tonight, may be just as aligned with those same groups through their belief in gender stereotypes and gender roles.

Yet, they either cannot see that connection or don’t wish to.

This abusive mischaracterisation of feminists has led to some, likely many, feminists to reject the term ‘gender critical’ as it has been used here on this thread. And it is abusive. It is used to shame and silence women rightfully speaking and campaigning for the
sexed based rights that benefit all female people and not male people.

Just to clarify my use of extreme trans activist. To me, this term encompasses those who make extreme demands on society that people believe that humans can change sex and that male people
should access any female single
sex spaces or provisions developed to progress female people after millennia of negative sexist discrimination. It does not refer to all trans people. Merely a
group of trans people, along with other groups who are not transgender themselves, yet seem to set themselves up as spokespeople for transgender people. Hypocritical because transgender people are most definitely not homogenous in believing humans can change sex either!

The people using this ridiculous falsity may as well call all people
who believe water is wet ‘Nazis’. It is the same premise.

TLDR: this poster has hypocritically politicised this tragedy for their own agenda.

In doing so, this poster hypocritically has also used the term ‘gender critical’ to force team feminists with an abhorrent person. Because that person seems to believe humans cannot change sex . Ie using the same metric, this person is aligned with the vast majority of people on earth, this poster uses that as a tool to shame and silence feminists on a feminist board.

Helleofabore · 17/10/2023 03:57

SpiderMaam · 17/10/2023 02:19

This is not a GC feminist account, this is some random shitposter with 24 followers, probably a 4channer teenager.

Do you ever stop and think before you post misinformation?

I think it is possible that some readers can see similarities in posting styles categorised as ‘shit posting’. Albeit perhaps not in the same degree.

ArabeIIaScott · 17/10/2023 04:15

Thanks for typing all that out, Helle. I may copy and save it, if that's okay.

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