Tragic suicide

[Ramblingnamechanger]

Channel four news spent long time talking about the suicide of a young person ( male ) who killed themself because of not receiving gender affirming surgery when they wanted it. Obviously distraught parents seemed to think that that should have had whatever it was, affirming their son was their daughter and interviewer calling them she throughout.nothing about treating the depression which was underlying. Did not touch the area of what exactly GAS is. I have no idea what they meant…the only thing that was interesting was that they were discharged at 18 from the gender identity clinic, because of depression ( I think that was stated), Would this now be a counter indication for surgeries I wonder?

So the reality is that this is another Gender GP patient who has committed suicide.

The reporting, and in particular the headline, is very misleading and I am shocked by the Times reporting it this way.

Can’t see a way to edit the last post for some reason, but having read more thoroughly, it’s unclear from the article whether treatment by Gender GP was ongoing.

I also see it’s a report on an inquest, so perhaps the reporting is not so much at fault, as the inquest result. The waiting lists are blamed (not unreasonably) but presumably witnesses and interviewees are skewing it towards their own prejudice in favour of affirmative care.

Aside from that I also thought it was sad that the older sister changed her family history to the false narrative and talked about anecdotes when her sibling was a 'little girl' which she of course never was.

It's more than sad @titchy - a child's transition which is policed by parents can have a huge impact on siblings' mental health - I've seen it in my extended family. Sibling not allowed to refer to their sister at all. Forced to join in the mental ill health of their sibling.

You are right about lack of peer-reviewed proper ethical research in all parts of this area.

I note that Jo Phoenix was attempting to do such research at the Open University when she was shut down. (Her case is up soon and she is crowd funding this at the moment.)

Moving away from belief and towards knowledge is important.

There is a recent study for testosterone in women claiming it helps mental health.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/08/fast-access-to-hormone-therapy-in-transgender-adults-lifesaving-study-finds

But then, is it helping gender dysphoria?

Is testosterone giving a mood boost to some women and acting as an antidepressant?

They are in the honeymoon period of getting a treatment they wanted and so improved mood for that reason?

It's not looking at long term outcomes, and it doesn't compare transitioning against an alternative of trying to deal with gender dysphoria through therapy say.

I really think the people trying to score point on the thread are extremely tasteless/callous...

What matter is that a young person felt distraught enough to end their life and did not receive the help needed to avoid that tragedy.

You can have your opinions on gender and disagree with people transitioning but show some respect to that young person and their family.

Although I don't think there is any doubt that years long waiting lists for mental health issues can cause serious distress to people, and as mentioned this applies to various mental health assessments and treatments.

I understood the problem was that the CAMHS for children mental health support ended abruptly, and there was no further mental health support available.

Every suicide is tragic. Mental health services are failing horribly.

Is testosterone giving a mood boost to some women and acting as an antidepressant?

Testosterone is known to have this effect in the short term - as with many substances where the long term effects aren't so wonderful. I wonder how many other restricted substances create "mental health improvements" a few months into use.

There are multiple reports of the inquest in the press and all include details omitted by the BBC and Channel 4. The fact that both focus solely on the NHS waiting list for "gender affirming care" as being responsible for Alice's death is irresponsible propaganda.

The headlines are all just as appalling though.

iNews has details about the mental health care provided by CAHMS and the local adult mental health service but no mention that hormones were supplied privately by Gender GP (Helen Webberley's online outfit):

Trans woman who took own life after three years waiting for NHS appointment was failed by system, mother says
https://inews.co.uk/news/trans-woman-took-own-life-three-years-waiting-nhs-appointment-failed-system-mother-2625872

Archive: https://archive.ph/N6BHV

Much the same reporting in the Telegraph though more cursory:

Trans woman killed herself after spending 1,000 days on NHS waiting lists
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/18/transgender-woman-suicide-tavistock-nhs-waiting-list/

Archive: https://archive.ph/F5DIT

In the Brighton Argus, mum Dr Caroline Litman seems to suggest Alice's dissatisfaction with both CAHMS and the adult mental health service was that they did not expedite access to hormones but were concerned instead about mental health issues. No mention that hormones were supplied by Gender GP.

Brighton: Mother of Alice Litman says healthcare system failed her
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/23797787.brighton-mother-alice-litman-says-healthcare-system-failed/

It would be just as irresponsible for headlines to blare that this suicide was due to refusal to cooperate with mental health services, receipt of cross-sex hormones from Gender GP (or moving to Brighton!) but the press are cherry picking a particular point of criticism made by the parents and are running with an angle that suits their varying agendas about the NHS and services for patients who identify as trans.

(I have phrased it that way because so far the emphasis in reporting has been on Alice having severe depression prior to "coming out as trans" rather than Alice suffering from gender dysphoria.)

What matters is that steps are taken to try and prevent other young people doing the same thing.

For that to happen, we need to understand what went wrong, whether the outcome would likely have been different if various other things had been different (there is rarely a simple, single cause), what actually works.

Families have important insights, but as part of a family affected by suicide over more than one generation, I know that our insight is only part of the picture and can be coloured by lots of things including grief, anger and entirely misplaced guilt. What we think would make a difference may not.

Yes. Quite.

So this person was going to GenderGP so was being treated for their gender dysphoria.

And GenderGP didn’t treat the comorbidities? So, what use is GenderGP and why is it being rewarded?

Absolutely the services on the NHS has many issues across many health conditions. However, the story seems to be reported very misleadingly.

So, people are not allowed to point out the very poorly principled reporting of this tragedy? And also point out the issue that has been studied and documented now by clinicians around the world? That there is a very significant issue with treatment plans and that comorbities are being ignored by some clinicians to the harm of the patient.

So, we are not allowed to discuss these issues because you feel it is disrespectful? When can we have those discussions please? Particularly since some of us have children and teens who are being significantly impacted by these issues.

I echo @Helleofabore's questions about when exactly might it be respectful to discuss this. Alice died in May 2022 and the inquest has been held, the inquest being a process to find out what happened. Is that also disrespectful to the family, @Startingagainandagain? It's in the press and it's not sub-judice, so we can discuss it. Is there point-scoring here? I don't think I've seen it and I trust the mods to take down any untoward comments.

What matter is that a young person felt distraught enough to end their life and did not receive the help needed to avoid that tragedy.

Thing is, there's a very fractious and politicised debate about what help is most effective in this sort of patient. And one might argue that the parents talking to journalists is also 'disrespectful.'

So, people are not allowed to point out the very poorly principled reporting of this tragedy?

This ^^

For goodness sake, why not?

I thought we were supposed to be queering all taboos and letting it all hang out, why on earth the sudden 'you mustn't look at that or talk about that' when this unprincipled reporting is a serious public matter?

Another very good point Frood. So, 'queering' taboos and doing things that are disrespectful is fine for one group of people because some people believe that they should get some kind of additional accommodations to do things that the rest of society find unacceptable.

Once you see this complete lack of symmetry, you never unsee it. It lies in the foundation of every argument to make these accommodations that people demand that are, in fact, to the detriment of other groups within society that have been oppressed historically.

But, it never fails to have some random poster enter a thread to scold others, usually women, for not showing what some poster's believe is the appropriate respect for that group which makes these demands of only ever showing 'belief'. And let's remember, it is a belief. There is no science or medical evidence or even logic that supports a movement to give priority to people who demand their gender identity is prioritised over people's sex and women and girl's sex based rights.

But hey.... it would be an unusual day without a drive by scolding.

So Alice's suicide followed the start of cross sex hormone treatment, if the report is correct?

I know we were warned to watch our child very carefully for the initial weeks after starting antidepressants, as that's a time of increased risk of suicide. I'm wondering if there could be a similar startup effect here. There are so very many unknowns.

I have raised money for Papyrus. I hope this information is helpful to anyone reading this thread who is concerned about a child or young person they know.

PAPYRUS is the national charity dedicated to the prevention of young suicide.

PAPYRUS Prevention of Young Suicide is the UK charity dedicated to the prevention of suicide and the promotion of positive mental health and emotional wellbeing in young people.

Suicide is the biggest killer of people aged 35 and under in the UK. We believe that suicide is preventable.

PAPYRUS was founded in 1997 by a group of bereaved parents, who had each lost children to suicide. Our founding parents shared core beliefs that suicide is preventable, and that those of us with lived experience of suicide have a valuable and unique contribution to make to the wider conversation around suicide.

Since then, PAPYRUS has grown into a UK-wide charity with offices in north west England, south west England, West Midlands, London, Northern Ireland, north Wales, south Wales, and Scotland.

Today, we are a leading youth suicide prevention charity in the UK. Our suicide prevention helpline, HOPELINE247, is staffed by trained suicide prevention advisers, who work with young people – and anybody concerned for a young person – to help keep them safe from suicide. HOPELINE247 is a free and confidential call, text and email service, which is available 24 hours a day, every day of the year (weekends and bank holidays included),

We deliver our suicide prevention education and training packages to thousands of people each year, to create suicide-safer communities across the UK.

We also press for change to current legislation around suicide prevention on a regional and national level.

The work we do centres around three key principles; Support Equip and Influence.

See more here:

https://www.papyrus-uk.org/aboutus/

GUIDELINES FOR JOURNALISTS

Young suicide – the facts

• Suicide is the main cause of death in young people under the age of 35 in the UK.
• In 2018, 1,866 young people under the age of 35 took their own lives.
• Over three quarters of them were boys or young men.
• On average, over five young people take their lives each day.
• Over 200 schoolchildren are lost to suicide every year.
• Research shows that with appropriate early intervention and support suicide by young people can be prevented.

Reporting suicide

When reporting suicide please consider, not only the grief of family and friends of the deceased, but other vulnerable young people who may be feeling worthless and not coping with life at that time and for whom explicit descriptions of suicide method could offer a life escape route. It is well known that insensitive media reporting of suicide can prompt imitative behaviour. Evidence about the potential for imitative behaviour is strong.

When reporting suicide and self-harm please avoid –

• High profile (e.g. front page) positioning of suicide news.
• Bold and dramatic headlines such as ‘suicide contagion’, ‘suicide drama’, ‘suicide hot spot’.
• Detail of suicide method used, especially explicit descriptions e.g. names of pills or chemicals taken, types of ligature used.
• Naming and showing locations and means such as railway lines, bridges, tall buildings or cliffs.
• Naming social media, internet sites and chat rooms that promote suicide.
• Speculating about the reason or ‘trigger’ for the suicide; there is never only one reason why a young person ends their life. Contributing factors are complex and can include individual risk, current life events and surrounding social situations.
• Making the deceased appear heroic or brave or that the suicide was a solution to a problem.
• Romanticising suicides, linking suicide to a particular ‘cult’.
• Using large photographs of the deceased, especially of pretty young women, which can also romanticise suicide and encourage viral social media distribution.
• Endorsing myths around suicide.
• Excessive, dramatic, sensational headlines and reporting.

And please do –

• Be sensitive to the grief and feelings of bereaved family and friends who are often vulnerable to taking their own lives.
• Include references to our helpline services and other support groups.

See more at:

https://www.papyrus-uk.org/guidelines-for-journalists/

No it’s not. The median wait for a consultant led assessment in the NHS in December 2022 was 14 weeks. 92% of people were assessed within 46 weeks.

By comparison, the main GIC in London is only now seeing patients referred five years ago for a first appointment.

OK, but note that with mental health services, for example, it can also take years to get an ADHD or Autism assessment.

Certain areas may not even offer treatments for some mental health conditions.

And if you want access to secondary mental health services / a psychiatrist, you may sometimes simply be told that you don't meet the criteria for the service.

Thanks to all those who have posted links to other reports of this sad death.

They seem to clearly indicate that C4 did not do research but decided, for whatever reason, to allow the family to represent how they perceive their child's death. I think they wanted to slant the report to be about them being so upset they were seeking legal redress.

My quote from the BBC was in response to the OP as the issue was whether any treatment had been offered or take up, not about which service.

Although it now seems that the family sought private health care which both the BBC and C4 didn't refer to. I hope the inquest does a better job in considering all aspects of this tragedy.

And I appreciate the comments about how the media such report on suicides. Although it seems that the family have sought this publicity. But they may have to face the fact that the evidence given will not tally with how they think who is at fault.

I seem to recall reading that Helen Belcher of Trans Media Watch had been very busy some years ago introducing Gender Ideology to Channel 4. Channel 4 has always prided itself on being lefty and cutting edge and I don't imagine it took much to recruit it as an ally.

This Tweet from Christine Burns gives some background. C4 signed itself up as a trans ally as early as 2013 — before Stonewall officially took up the T.
https://twitter.com/HelenCBelcher/status/1663079127266611200

I don't think you can expect Channel 4 to be any more impartial on this issue than the BBC. They were both captured some time ago.