Róisín Murphy 2

[WarriorN]

New thread as lots of deeper discussions going on

Biffo, here's an idea of something men could do, that would be a bit tricky for MNers to do:
put up stickers in men's toilets saying 'Transwomen are safe here', to counter the claim they'll be 'unsafe' if they use the toilets designated for their sex.

That’s a very good idea 👍 I do reckon the male part of the solution is to remind them that they are, in fact, one of the boys.

There's no validation in men's loos, though.

Good idea.

Consider the audience. Not necessarily men who claim a trans identity.

Food for thought..

Yes, people wanting access to the ladies’ are probably not going to go in the gents’..?

Though it is kinda cheeky, in a way that (non-insecure) men find funny, coming from women : 'Feminists say, blokes in dresses welcome here - they keep piddling on the floor in ours 🙄' etc.

The stickers should be placed on the entrance to the men's toilets. Unfortunately, I doubt they'd last five minutes.

Or something like 'Feminists say "You wouldn't go in our toilets (and TBH we wouldn't have you in there, stinking the place out😀) so why does he want to ?" ' (picture of India Willoughby, or sb similarly '?'.)

I went for a walk to the shop and there's loads of decent ideas - 'Gay guys say : we love men too, join us' and the like - but to avoid it becoming an empty slogan, the people ;'making the statement' on the sticker, would have to be in charge of the thing and bring it to life.

That leaves straight men - fathers, brothers, uncles, grandpas, sons, etc. (I'll leave mates to one side, because I think the straight guy role here needs to be very clearly defined in terms of the women they have in their lives and there is that risk of straying into that cringey 'Maaaaaaaayte' territory that Sadiq Khan went in for.)

Also, 'changing-room' humour, which I think is best discussed amongst men. Everyone's on their best behaviour when a woman looks into that.(though I can reassure you that one doesn't bring the women in one's life into those discussions ; a chap will attract scorn from his mates if he casts aspersions on another man's girlfirend or wife, etc, or pokes his nose into that man's intimate affairs with the women in his life. I won't go into tiresome details but bragging to your mates is, in fact, a way of protecting the privacy of your relationship from the other men in your group - by hinting, with a wink, at some blatantly fictitious narrative of Valentino-level exploits - which (I'm sure you can all concur) may be a little exaggerated to say the least ? - one closes the door on any further discussion.).

Anyway, another idea : 'Feminists say "No such thing as a male feminist - sorry, (not sorry) - just don't fck with us and we'll still love you in the morning" ' Anyway, that's me done with 'feminists say' - you're doing that for yourselves - and how ! But I've deduced that it's the straight guys who need this message.

@Biffology I don't want to be rude but I ain't convinced that your view and my view are a shared view. What outcomes around sex v gender are you looking for? Where do you draw the line on Prisons; Rape Centres, changing rooms and toilets? Please stop being so "I am a man and I am here solve all your problems"

@JanesLittleGirl

That's a very useful objection,which we need to look into and understand.

To begin with, apologies are in order if you're getting the impression that I'm coming here to do something other than figure out what part of the solution men need to do and then going away and thinking about how to achieve that. Women are doing their thing and that's how it should be but there's silence from elsewhere and I'm not sure that is right.

I don't want to labour the point but I have mentioned that we're now, thankfully, at a place where - sure - as a man, I can go on my way from this site and strike out into some other area. But while I'm here, I want to get some help with working out what I could do to help and making sure that it fits with the main part, which is women campaigning for women's rights - I'm under no illusions about that.

As I'm hinting at, there's a part of this that women can't do and I want to specify, as closely as I can, what that amounts to - that's a sensible thing to do, if you're going to go against the grain and you're getting a lot of flak.

Please let me know if there's something else you'd like me to explain or clarify. This matters as much to me, as it surely does to you, because I'm going to be talking with other men about this and I categorically do not want to end up MIA.

As a man, I'm potentially going to be travelling into the 'Heart-Of-Darkness' of what motivates and nourishes those who seek to do what we've all seen them doing.

In that sense, the problem is with men and the solution is, also, with men. Women defend their private spaces from this lot but people like me need to go into the deeper psychology and create solutions. In that sense, I'm not apologetic about suggesting that, yeah, men are the solution. Because men are the problem.

Biffo, I'm happy to hand it over to you now - we've exchanged ideas here, and I think you probably have a good idea of what we want - women's spaces respected 100% by all men.
There are many reasons for wanting that, as you know - from fear of violence to maintaining dignity to poor aim!
But it's above all a matter of principle: women's spaces are what it says on the tin, so men should stay out.

I think you probably have enough background info now to work out, from your own valuable perspective as a supportive man, how to influence other men to be as supportive as you are. Just spreading the word that we need to go back to 'the good men stay out so the bad men stand out' is valuable work.

Good luck!

@MarieDeGournay

As we've gathered, I'm not quite ready just yet to go and Do The Do and I need some more understanding and do some studying, to feel ready to progress into where I need to go.

I did a bit of Twitty to see how it went and that was all plain-sailing ; as I suspect you've gathered, this isn't my first rodeo with politics so I'm no stranger to what's involved.

Sure, I have some serviceable skills on organising and doing-the-do ; I know what activism is and you've seen me on here, I can do what is needed and I enjoy helping. But if I'm going to be a leader - and I get the distinct impression that I've got to do that - it's going to be with other men - as much as we all like each other, as people, there's no place for me in feminism and it'd be a weird 'hang on there's a man campaigining about keeping men out of women's spaces' thing about me pretending to be a feminist - I'm not a woman !

So that's why I'm looking beyond today and and thinking about tomorrow. I'm still going to need to remain here, as I think it does anchor us in something worthwhile that we have in common. But if I get my way, I'm going to seek my fullest subectivity in 'being a bloke' and doing something there.

Thinkiing on, if my sentiment of 'I'm still going to need to remain here' counts as not getting the message, let me know - I'm happy to treat this specific area as a shared space (just like the audience) and I don't go elsewhere on Mumsnet ; no browsing, no lurking, no nothing.

Buuuuuuuut, if you feel we're at a place where I've definitely dome my bit and it's time to move on, fair play. I think I did a good job.

We can agree some 'you can find me here' places, where we can reconvene, if you like - Roisin's fb for example. DM me and I'll tell you.

They’ve been dicks to Róisín again

https://x.com/roisinmurphy/status/1999426720760316071?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Yes, still here.

They are revealing themselves. That individual is a nasty piece of work and her cronies are basically thugs..

As I mentioned earlier, I've set sail onto social-media, to give my support, etc.

Here we go, time for a DARVO masterclass.

I write this

'Why are TG activists so eager to dehumanise those they disagree with ? And if they're so upset about people being persecuted, why do they take such pride in harrassing those they disagree with ? They say they love and value rights but they want to take rights away from those they disagree with. They say they despise hate speech but engage in it freely themselves ? They don't really seem to preach live-and-let-live, more like live-and-let-die ? They aren't ticking enough boxes here, to qualify as law-abiding citizens. Quick question to our person who responded to my comment with laughter - what's so funny, to you, about rape threats or encouraging others to punch women in the face ? I don't see anyone else in society laughing about this violent behaviour...'

and a respondent comes back with this

'So you're saying that the TG Activists are dehumanising the people who disagree. “They” (who are they?) aren't ticking enough boxes to qualify as law-abiding citizens? Are you for real? Do me a favour! Don't play the victim when, in fact, it's people like you who are dehumanising the trans community! You are also spreading misinformation with your discriminatory views! The trans community are four times more likely to be violently attacked, sexually assaulted, and raped! Take your head out of your arse, open your eyes and join reality! Honestly, get yourself an education!
^^'
(the clown emoji is part of their response)

I don't take the bait and write this

'Here we are folks, someone has kindly decided to show us an example of DARVO in action.'

And they try to do a feint and come back with this

'I'm not being unreasonable, I'm not attacking you, and I'm not in denial; I'm simply presenting the facts. I’m urging you to open your eyes and stop listening to the misinformation that's circulating. Yet again, you have the audacity to play the victim. You've got more front than Sainsbury’s, butt! In fact, you’re exemplifying DARVO in action! Are you feeling dizzy? Because I think you'll find the tables have turned!'

To which my response is

'Projection, now.'

Pious twats

Róisín got herself an education

Looks that way 😀

As a result, there's some bloated egos getting pricked and it's suddenly not so easy to play the trans card, like it's a golden ticket, access all areas, VIP.

As they used to say in those adverts with Alan Whicker, 'Non'.

As mentioned earlier, I'm now concentrating on the wider world of social media and what I've put there is pretty much the generic set of arguments from respondents. If I see other approaches, I'll post them here - the idea is to give people who haven't gone into those areas, some examples of what the conversations look like. Feel free to take ownership and share your thoughts. 😁

The Roisin Murphy subreddit looks to have been entirely taken over by similar idiots.

Reddits tend to be congregating-places for such people ; in fact, didn't the original 'let's make this a thing' start there ? So the intial culprit/s is there ?