Page 5 | New sports club at DC’s high school only open to LGBTQ+ pupils and their allies

SirChenjins · 2023-09-08T09:46:48+00:00

Are they legally allowed to exclude GC pupils? Or pupils who are not one of the special alphabet children? This is a really great club - nothing like the school has offered before. Seems a shame to limit attendance based on sexuality/gender ideology rather than interest/ability. We’re in Scotland if that makes a difference.

Soontobe60 · 08/09/2023 14:09

SuperNewMe · 08/09/2023 11:23

@SunflowersAndSmellyTrainers I imagine it's about creating a safe space for the children, away from prejudice, phobia and bullying. It just happens to be wrapped up in the form of a club to make it fun and hey, why not?
Oh,@SirChenjins"special alphabet children" - what do you mean by this precisely, I wonder

Exactly - I'd see it as somewhere for anyone LGBT to go, hang out, have a 'safe' hang out for want of a better word.
Think the sneery "special alphabet children " says it all really about the intention of "but can "GC" people go, and if not, why not? 🙄

There are many gay children who also know that sex is immutable and do not want to ‘align’ themselves with the homophobic aspect of trans ideology such as the claim that lesbians can have a penis, and that lesbians should be prepared to date males who claim to be female.
Should there be a group for them? Or would you see that as being transphobic?

everetting · 08/09/2023 14:11

OP does not even state what sport it is. There may be lots of kids clubs locally in that sport even if the school does not run one.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:12

Oh just leave them alone! The reason we gays need our own teams, or meetings or groups or venue bars sometimes, is because we face discrimination, name calling and sucky attitudes the time.
If this is a club aimed at gay kids then let them be. The ‘allies’ bit is probably because some tiger parent whined that the gays kids shouldn’t be getting their own thing.

Your DS has plenty of other choices I’m sure.

MargotBamborough · 08/09/2023 14:12

Snowypeaks · 08/09/2023 13:55

Problems I see:
This group is arbitrarily constituted and does not share a protected characteristic. Sexual orientation and gender reassignment are different. Q means nothing in law. Allies ditto.
IANAL, so maybe
Lesbians are not underrepresented in sport generally, the opposite is true if anything. We don't know what the sport is, but if other sports are a guide, there will be no shortage of lesbians.
Since a bare 0.5% of the English and Welsh population claim some sort of identity, I think it's unlikely that the T demographic actually is underrepresented. But before we can assess whether T are under-represented we would have to know what "trans" means. Nobody seems to.

Never mind not wanting to out themselves as gender-questioning, some kids may not want to out themselves as homosexual.

There is no provision for straight or gc kids of any sexual orientation to participate. Agree with pp that we shouldn't be focusing on sexual orientation and identity anyway, at least not until they are 16.

Since it is a mixed sex sport, the T demographic don't have to take part in a team labelled one sex or the other, so there would be no reason to exclude the other kids.

The L, G or B children are as likely to experience homophobic bullying in an LGBTQ group as they are anywhere else.

Agree with the points raised by the OP at 12:50.
On the face of it, this looks like a special club set up to exclude pupils as young as 11 on the grounds of their beliefs and sexual orientation. This is unfair and also ridiculous for a school. They're just kids, fgs. It would be more honest to call it a sport club for gender zealots. It's a very bad example to set as it excludes for illegitimate reasons.

Separate point:
Speaking generally to those saying that an open category in addition to the male and female categories are the way forward, please think again. All you are doing is creating another category for men to excel in. And it would not keep the male
people out of the female category, either - the only thing that keeps the female category female is a prohibition on all males. The existence of another, mixed-sex option is as attractive to males claiming to be women/girls as the existence of third spaces generally. Not validating or exciting enough.

Good post. I agree with most of what you say but disagree with you about the utility of an open or mixed category. In my view the point of it would be that you then have an absolute prohibition on anyone competing in a single sex category for the opposite sex.

OK so it's another chance for the boys/men to excel, but in a way that proves our point for us, doesn't it? The trans men and female NBs will get sick of not winning anything, they'll go back to competing with the rest of their sex, and the mixed category will become a category for biological males who don't identify as boys/men. It'll be of little use or interest to anyone. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will give rise to a thriving transgender sports scene, in which case more power to them. But female sports will be protected and preserved for biological females of any or no gender identity.

The only thing I would say is that if it is a contact sport then a risk assessment would need to be done.

Soontobe60 · 08/09/2023 14:14

MargotBamborough · 08/09/2023 11:42

This is wrong.

I think it's absolutely fine to have a sports club for, let's say, gender diverse children who don't want to be in biological sex categories.

If it's a sport that is usually played in single sex teams but these children don't feel comfortable with that then by all means have a third option. But you don't even have to call it LGBTQ+, just call it mixed and tell the children that they can either join the team for their birth sex or the mixed team. That would be so much better as well for any gender questioning children who didn't feel comfortable playing in a single sex team for their birth sex but aren't ready to come out, because they and their friends could just say they prefer a mixed sex environment.

It's doubly wrong if there isn't an equivalent team or club for children who don't fall into this bizarre category. And it's clearly deliberate because if any child asks for another club the response they'll get is, "Why? Aren't you an ally?"

Children should not be given the ‘choice’ of playing most sports with someone of the opposite sex. That just continues to uphold the belief that sport shouldn’t be segregated by sex, only by how one identifies. The only group that this discriminates against is females.

Needmoresleep · 08/09/2023 14:15

Am I missing something. DD played a lot of sport as a teenager to quite a high level. There were plenty of same sex attracted females on her team, and indeed one sports club would not have functioned without huge volunteer time contributions from some very generous lesbian women.

Thing is, no one batted an eyelid. Stonewall's campaigns of the 80s and 90s worked. Everyone was there to play sport and who you might be sexually attracted to made no difference whatsoever. The obvious example is the Lionesses, many of whom are out and proud.

It is astonishing then to hear from people like boyoboys that same sex attracted people are now an under-represented group in teen sport. What happened? Do girls who might have previously identified as butch lesbians now see themselves as transmen and so are super-body conscious. Are their team mates so tired on walking round pronouns as if they were eggs shells that these kids have effectively become pariahs and need their own space?

Something has gone badly wrong if gay teens have now lost the acceptance and engagement that they had a decade ago. I suspect that dedicated sports groups might be making the problem worse not better.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:15

‘Lesbians are not underrepresented in sport generally, the opposite is true if anything. We don't know what the sport is, but if other sports are a guide, there will be no shortage of lesbians.’

Jesus - talk about stereotypes! Lesbians, particularly butch-er ones - are often VERY unwelcome in sports clubs ( football and rugby are perhaps the only exceptions) and we still get plenty of discrimination from other women and girls. Particularly the ones who don’t like the - well outdated - stereotype that only lesbians okay sport in the first place…

SuperNewMe · 08/09/2023 14:15

Seems very strange to me that the group is aimed at a particular group on the grounds of sexual orientation. Yes this is high school (and yes many teens are sexually active) but are these children beyond the age of consent in your region? Seems like children are being unnecessarily sexualised
Being lesbian or gay at school.doesnt mean sexually active, or needing to be over 16 - why are you going straight to sex?!
I knew I fancied boys at 11. (Straight) it's not about sex!!
So there's a place you know where others feel the same and aren't mocking "?alphabet people" (OPs words, not mine) - what's wrong with that?

MargotBamborough · 08/09/2023 14:16

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:12

Oh just leave them alone! The reason we gays need our own teams, or meetings or groups or venue bars sometimes, is because we face discrimination, name calling and sucky attitudes the time.
If this is a club aimed at gay kids then let them be. The ‘allies’ bit is probably because some tiger parent whined that the gays kids shouldn’t be getting their own thing.

Your DS has plenty of other choices I’m sure.

But when women and girls say, "The reason we need our own sports/groups/rape crisis support is because [long list of reasons]" we are called transphobic bigots.

Soontobe60 · 08/09/2023 14:20

caringcarer · 08/09/2023 12:56

I think it's a good thing if trans kids want to compete against each other instead of wanting to enter female races tbh.

I think it’s a good idea to encourage trans girls / women to participate in the correct sex class, ie males, and vice versa for trans boys / men. In other words, stick with material reality.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:20

‘Seems very strange to me that the group is aimed at a particular group on the grounds of sexual orientation. ‘

Are people really so blind to the homophobia that is still everywhere?? It’s fine for a LGBTQ group to exist for young people. So they can meet people similar to themselves, feel supported, feel safe. This one just happens to be based around a sport.

A group that OP wants her straight, male child to have access to for some reason. if it was a group aimed at girls - like girls footie, also underrepresented - would OP be demanding her son be able to join?
what it was a group aimed at non-white ethnicities? Is that racist or Discriminatory?

I reckon the school will give you short-thrift, but if your DS is actually friends with some of the gay kids going, fi your boots.

GrinAndVomit · 08/09/2023 14:22

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:12

Oh just leave them alone! The reason we gays need our own teams, or meetings or groups or venue bars sometimes, is because we face discrimination, name calling and sucky attitudes the time.
If this is a club aimed at gay kids then let them be. The ‘allies’ bit is probably because some tiger parent whined that the gays kids shouldn’t be getting their own thing.

Your DS has plenty of other choices I’m sure.

It’s not a club for gay kids.
That’s where the conflict is coming from.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:22

I remember my mate joining a gay men’s rugby team, and my DM asking why he felt the need. Why was there a ‘gay’ team. Why did he just play in a ‘normal’ team.
I politely explained that many straight people don’t want gay people in their team, and that he didn’t feel safe or welcome having to hide in the closet just to play a sport.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:25

‘It’s not a club for gay kids.
That’s where the conflict is coming from.’

mmm.
LGBTQ kids plus allies. So that’s gay kids and their friends? Not some random straight boy who already has all the privilege in the world.
of course, he could be gay or bi or questioning so welcome to go along. I’m sure no-one other than OP would make a fuss so long as he is respectful.

DiabolicalFinial · 08/09/2023 14:28

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:25

‘It’s not a club for gay kids.
That’s where the conflict is coming from.’

mmm.
LGBTQ kids plus allies. So that’s gay kids and their friends? Not some random straight boy who already has all the privilege in the world.
of course, he could be gay or bi or questioning so welcome to go along. I’m sure no-one other than OP would make a fuss so long as he is respectful.

Are you deliberately ignoring the “TQ+” component?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/09/2023 14:30

Nope that’s gay kids plus boys who may identify as girls and hold the homophobic view that lesbians who aren’t attracted to “trans girls” ie boys are homophobic. And of course Q which means anyone & everyone in reality so fuck all to do with LGB

and their “allies” whatever that means in practice!

MargotBamborough · 08/09/2023 14:37

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:20

‘Seems very strange to me that the group is aimed at a particular group on the grounds of sexual orientation. ‘

Are people really so blind to the homophobia that is still everywhere?? It’s fine for a LGBTQ group to exist for young people. So they can meet people similar to themselves, feel supported, feel safe. This one just happens to be based around a sport.

A group that OP wants her straight, male child to have access to for some reason. if it was a group aimed at girls - like girls footie, also underrepresented - would OP be demanding her son be able to join?
what it was a group aimed at non-white ethnicities? Is that racist or Discriminatory?

I reckon the school will give you short-thrift, but if your DS is actually friends with some of the gay kids going, fi your boots.

The OP's straight male child wants access to this club because it's the only club for this sport at his school.

Of course he can join it if he wants to by saying he is a LGBTQ+ "ally".

So what's the point of this club?

At best, it's a club for everyone except children who want to bully LGBTQ+ children. Great. Except that the bullying of LGBTQ+ children shouldn't be tolerated in any club.

At worst, it's a club where the OP's son will be forced to stay quiet and not voice his disagreement if the other children are saying that anyone who thinks trans girls shouldn't use the girls' changing rooms is a hateful bigot who doesn't think trans people should be allowed to exist, or that JK Rowling is antisemitic, or that a particular "cishet" girl in their year is a TERF. In other words, it's a club where he will only be safe from bullying if he keeps his opinions to himself. And even if he does he may well be discriminated against for having cishet privilege.

SuperNewMe · 08/09/2023 14:39

Are you deliberately ignoring the “TQ+” component?
TQ are included too, just because someone has mentioned gay in their post, doesn't mean they're necessarily unaware of the TQ element as well?
So people who are trans can go to the club as well.
So what?
Can also take a friend along. Who isn't LGBTQ.
So everyone's included.
I assume a "GC" person could go, I mean as someone upthread said "what about GC lesbians?!
It'd surely only be a problem if you rocked up to tell anyone trans you "didnt believe in it" or whatever.
Holding the belief is different to actively discriminating or intimidating people who are.
Same goes with homophobic views.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:42

‘Are you deliberately ignoring the “TQ+” component?’

no. It’s a club for queer kids. Perhaps OPs kid IS questioning their sexuality or is gay or no or trans. But just doesn’t want to tell OP that. So he should just go.
Wouldn’t be the first ‘straight’ kid to turn up at something aimed at gay kids - so long as he’s not a homophobic twat, no-one will care.

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:44

It’s pretty clear to me who the club is for -OPs faux outrage at her ‘straight GC’ son’s ‘exclusion’ is just smoke and mirrors.
if he wants to go he can go. He just can’t be a dick to gay kids because it’s full of gay kids.
hardly an issue. There are plenty of GC gay people.

MargotBamborough · 08/09/2023 14:46

SuperNewMe · 08/09/2023 14:39

Are you deliberately ignoring the “TQ+” component?
TQ are included too, just because someone has mentioned gay in their post, doesn't mean they're necessarily unaware of the TQ element as well?
So people who are trans can go to the club as well.
So what?
Can also take a friend along. Who isn't LGBTQ.
So everyone's included.
I assume a "GC" person could go, I mean as someone upthread said "what about GC lesbians?!
It'd surely only be a problem if you rocked up to tell anyone trans you "didnt believe in it" or whatever.
Holding the belief is different to actively discriminating or intimidating people who are.
Same goes with homophobic views.

OK, so if a child with gender critical views attends this club because they want to play this sport, it's their only opportunity to play this sport, and they don't hate gay or trans people, and then they get talking to a trans student who says, "JK Rowling is an evil transphobic bitch, isn't she?" is this child free to say, "No I don't agree, I think she's just really passionate about women's rights and the way she's opened up a new rape crisis centre for female rape survivors is so inspiring", will they still be welcome in the club?

MargotBamborough · 08/09/2023 14:49

Perhapsperhapsto · 08/09/2023 14:44

It’s pretty clear to me who the club is for -OPs faux outrage at her ‘straight GC’ son’s ‘exclusion’ is just smoke and mirrors.
if he wants to go he can go. He just can’t be a dick to gay kids because it’s full of gay kids.
hardly an issue. There are plenty of GC gay people.

You mean like the ones being kicked off lesbian dating apps and described by Nancy Kelley as sexual racists and having to defend legal action trying to have the LGB charity they set up stripped of its charitable status?

Would they be welcome in this club?

NerrSnerr · 08/09/2023 14:49

I have a friend who runs a gay rugby club. It's open to everyone and I think there's one straight man in the team (who is welcome). They set it up because of bad experiences of trying to play for 'normal' rugby teams. So much homophobia but it's ok because it's 'banter'.

It's ok for gay kids to want a safe space to play sport. The OP's son can join in if he isn't a dick towards the people in the team.

Original poster

SirChenjins · 08/09/2023 14:50

Well, what is it - a club for queer kids, or trans kids, or gay kids, or lesbian kids? All? All only if they don't hold GC beliefs? Trans kids who believe that lesbians shouldn't have to justify why they don't want to date men? Trans kids who know that forcing women to share single sex spaces and services with men is wrong? Gay boys who don't fancy trans girls?

Here's a thought - why not just let the pupils enjoy their childhood and adolescent years without all this nonsense, call it the <insert name of sports> club, open it to kids of 11-18 years of age regardless of their sexuality or gender ideology and address bullying and homophobia as it arises?

OP posts:

SuperNewMe · 08/09/2023 14:51

The OP's son can join in if he isn't a dick towards the people in the team
Exactly, for those going "but what about if I want to say this, or that?"
This is what it boils down to.