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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ways to lessen the risk of rape

399 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 05/09/2023 09:40

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789f07e8-49aa-11ee-ae7e-1fff6c8e0528?shareToken=0d97e81f86763060709b5a5106cc7a9b

The idea that any form of precautionary behaviour from women is akin to 'victim blaming' seems like madness to me. A very sensible column from K Stock.

'Someone needs to tell young women what sort of world they live in and how best to defend themselves accordingly — imperfect certainly, but still better than nothing. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t always the same thing as telling women that if they don’t listen to sensible advice, they have no right to complain about whatever happens next.'

Another detail that I'd never considered is how insulting it is to suggest that it's mothers' responsibility to 'teach sons not to rape'.

Telling women how to cut the risk of rape is anything but sexist

It is not victim-blaming to suggest ways of reducing vulnerability to attack. It is our duty

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789f07e8-49aa-11ee-ae7e-1fff6c8e0528?shareToken=0d97e81f86763060709b5a5106cc7a9b

OP posts:
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7
McSilkson · 07/09/2023 00:47

This is a bullshit proposition that only helps to perpetrate the dangerous and damaging myth that rape (of women) is typically committed by a stranger, when, in fact, it is committed by someone known to the female victim the vast majority of the time; most studies suggest the figure is around 90%. In fact, recent ONS research indicates that almost half (46%) of rapes of women are committed by a current or former sexual partner.

The logical conclusion, which is unpalatable and unviable to most women, is that the best way for a woman to avoid being raped is to not have sexual relationships with men. This is not something that Kathleen Stock, as a lesbian, has to worry about. She should probably have kept her mouth shut on this issue.

GnomeDePlume · 07/09/2023 06:54

'Known to the victim' covers an awful lot of people outside of current or previous relationships.

A very close relative was raped by a friend of a student flat mate. He was known to her.

People get raped by customers, co-workers, service providers.

The only way a woman can protect herself from the 'known to's is by having nothing to do with men, ever. Except that isn't feasible.

OnedayTwodays · 07/09/2023 07:43

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 06/09/2023 23:13

And you're safer walking home alone at 3am then accepting a lift from the nice helpful bloke.

I wish Kathleen the best of luck with advising her DD.

And most dangerous thing woman can have is a man in her home.

But how do you tell that to girls/women.

OnedayTwodays · 07/09/2023 07:47
  • Rapists are common, around 3% - 6% of all men in the West.

Where did you get this number.
No site/study ever wants to say what this nimber is.

And no way it’s that low.
It’s going to be much higher.
Are these when the rapist is un-known/ stranger?

Most women are raped by men they know, most likely one being boyfriend/husband.
That’s a lot of rapists.

GnomeDePlume · 07/09/2023 09:11

There will be a lot of repeat offenders who commit rape within or at the end/after the end of a relationship.

There will be a lot of men who think that going on a date, buying a woman a drink gives consent. They will be repeat offenders.

I think there is a number of men who don't perceive themselves as rapists. To them, their victims have consented. They will bounce from one one night stand to the next. They will boast that their conquests 'put out' once they have had a few drinks or have been slipped something to make them more 'up for it'.

IwantToRetire · 07/09/2023 15:38

The only way a woman can protect herself from the 'known to's is by having nothing to do with men, ever.

Not surprisingly quite a few women realised this some time ago.

That's why there were a number of lesbian separatist groups and squats in the 1970s.

Of course the media (and other women) made them out to be deranged.

But had to, because it was easier to say women were mad than look at the reality that for women men pose a threat.

As the old saying used to go: All men are potential rapists.

slore · 08/09/2023 02:05

popebishop · 06/09/2023 23:06

Avoid going out after dark or early in the morning.

So I can't pick my kids up from school in winter, or go to/leave my office? This is a huge adjustment to my life that essentially says I should stay in my own home after 5pm.

Can I ask what you have based this on - is there any data on time of attack?

It said "avoid" not "never". Also I wrote that poorly, I meant going out walking etc.

slore · 08/09/2023 02:10

popebishop · 06/09/2023 23:21

  • *Rapists may say things that like "do you want to come to mine?" without explicitly mentioning sex, yet take accepting this offer as definite consent to sex.
  • Rapists believe that consent cannot be revoked, and any belief that you consented (whether true or not) means they are entitled to sex.
  • Rapists get angry when "denied".*

So if they say 'do you want to come to mine', you can't say 'yes', but if you say 'no' they'll get angry, and might form some mad belief that you have consented to sex.

So you just need to be in a position where a rapist can't talk to you or approach you. That rules out public transport, shopping, going out nearly anywhere in public.

Yes. Rapists are entitled and unreasonable. That is the point.

The point in mentioning these things is to educate about the common behaviours and thought patterns of rapists, to make them easier to spot, and to make it easier to spot when one is trying to open up an opportunity for himself.

All men are a risk, aside from segregating ourselves in our own society there's not much we can do about them, but we are able, to an extent, to limit our interaction with them, and attempt to spot the more dangerous males before something happens.

AuContraire · 08/09/2023 06:54

I don't see an issue with making sure women and girls are aware of some ways which make it less likely that they will be a victim of rape/sexual assault. Less likely, not prevent it entirely.

Most rapes are committed because the man seizes an opportunity, most of those opportunities will arise when the man has the woman somewhere alone.

Yes, that means that most rapes will take place in the home, because that's where there is the greatest opportunity. The "keep your wits about you/don't drink to excess/don't leave your friends/don't walk/get into taxis alone" etc advice won't help there, but it might help in a club.

At home, we need to make women aware of the warning signs that their boyfriend/partner might be a rapist, eg he shows a poor understanding of or respect for your boundaries, thinks he's entitled to sex, tries to persuade you when you say no then huffs when you still refuse. All of this is useful advice and might help individual women get away before she is raped.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 08/09/2023 09:02

I don't see an issue with making sure women and girls are aware of some ways which make it less likely that they will be a victim of rape/sexual assault. Less likely, not prevent it entirely.

It depends who does it. If you read the article, it was a mansplaining bloke giving trite advice that very easily turns into victim blaming. And Stock defended him and attacked feminists using a simplistic of logic that says "well advice doesn't have to be victim blaming" and dismissing 50-odd years of feminist analysis of rape which points out that it usually is.

Stock may thinks she's a fresh voice of reason but on this one she's just a beginner. There are ways to give advice without victim blaming - in the old days there used to be women's self-defense groups that really understood what put women in danger and were effective at helping women stand up for themselves and avoid trouble - but Stock doesn't have anything to say about what those ways are. She's just going to talk to her DD. Well good luck with that.

ReginaRegina · 08/09/2023 18:23

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 08/09/2023 09:02

I don't see an issue with making sure women and girls are aware of some ways which make it less likely that they will be a victim of rape/sexual assault. Less likely, not prevent it entirely.

It depends who does it. If you read the article, it was a mansplaining bloke giving trite advice that very easily turns into victim blaming. And Stock defended him and attacked feminists using a simplistic of logic that says "well advice doesn't have to be victim blaming" and dismissing 50-odd years of feminist analysis of rape which points out that it usually is.

Stock may thinks she's a fresh voice of reason but on this one she's just a beginner. There are ways to give advice without victim blaming - in the old days there used to be women's self-defense groups that really understood what put women in danger and were effective at helping women stand up for themselves and avoid trouble - but Stock doesn't have anything to say about what those ways are. She's just going to talk to her DD. Well good luck with that.

Most women's self defence is pretty much a waste of time tbh. I think getting really good in Brazilian jujitsu is the best way to avoid getting raped. Maybe also some situational awareness training.

McSilkson · 08/09/2023 19:16

I'd also like to add that if around half of reported rapes of women are committed by a current or former intimate partner, according to the ONS, then the true percentage is likely MUCH higher than this. All the evidence I've seen suggests that intimate partner rape is far less likely to be reported than stranger rape. Just look at all the threads on here about incidents within relationships that clearly describe sexual assault/rape, which the OP tends not to recognise as such, titled "Was it rape?", "OP kept going when I told him to stop", "Woke up to OP doing X to me", etc. It's utterly endemic.

Talk of self-defence classes and the like is largely misguided. Women stand practically no chance in a fair fight against a man. If it comes to it, go straight for his eyes and crotch.

Personally, I think the best advice is to be very wary of all men and to NEVER give them the benefit of the doubt.

nepeta · 08/09/2023 23:37

It makes sense to separate the question of how to lower the incidence of rape in general (that is, how to make men less likely to rape) from the question of how to lower the likelihood that you, personally, end up the victim of rape.

To me it make sense to address the first strongly (and to keep addressing it as we have been doing that for decades now, sigh), but to also equip all of us with methods to help keep ourselves safer.

It also makes sense to take a step back and ask which kinds of men rape (mostly young? more likely to to be porn consumers? misogynists? men who believe they are entitled to sex?), if there is a small number of men who are serial rapists (there is, based on what I have read, and they are responsible for a chunk of all rapes), in which circumstances rape is most likely to happen (and how often in each types).

Actual statistical data is needed on these questions, and there is some, though not enough. We can't decide which strategies would reduce rape the most or which individual defenses work best if we don't have good general information.

Predators of any kind looks for access. One of the reasons most rapists know their victims is that access is much easier for someone who knows his niece or a coworker or a neighbour etc.

It's not that those men who are likely to rape whom you know are more dangerous than the men whom you don't know; it's that they have more access. We tend to defend ourselves more against stranger dangers of all types.

When it comes to ways individual women and girls might improve their own odds of not becoming rape victims some proposed ways would limit our lives a lot, by requiring limitations of movement, say, whereas others are less likely to do so.

I do think self-defense skills are useful*, especially when they are interpreted widely so that they include being aware of the situation, reading all the psychological signals correctly, learning about dangerous areas, being aware of one's surroundings etc. They are not a panacea and do not guarantee safety, but they offer you more choices in your tool box.

*While an average untrained woman might not stand a chance against an average man (who is, in a sense, already trained by the way boys are socialised) in a fight, having self-defense skills does make the battle somewhat less unfair, especially when the attacker doesn't expect that she has them and when they include those moves which work well against a larger opponent.

I began training in self-defense after someone tried to rape me and then got hooked on various fighting sports, so I have lots of skills, but a short well-taught course can provide many of the basic information and skills, though rehearsing them is still needed.

ReginaRegina · 09/09/2023 00:02

I'm pretty strong (can deadlift 140kg) and have trained in thai boxing and brazilian jujitsu, both pretty effective due to the full on sparring. I still wouldn't want to fight most blokes unarmed.

I think the most effective training for me was kali tbh, but you need a good club that does proper full speed sparring with body armour etc. Give me a sharp object and I'm confident of hurting most men pretty badly (I carry a four inch spiky keyring which probably isn't legal but would suffice).

nepeta · 09/09/2023 00:14

ReginaRegina · 09/09/2023 00:02

I'm pretty strong (can deadlift 140kg) and have trained in thai boxing and brazilian jujitsu, both pretty effective due to the full on sparring. I still wouldn't want to fight most blokes unarmed.

I think the most effective training for me was kali tbh, but you need a good club that does proper full speed sparring with body armour etc. Give me a sharp object and I'm confident of hurting most men pretty badly (I carry a four inch spiky keyring which probably isn't legal but would suffice).

I did cane fighting, but also lots of other things which were focused on holds, throws, which sites to aim for and how. Nobody wants to have to apply these principles to real life, of course, but as I wrote they are useful extra things to know about, and so is just knowing how to block things and disable the attacker temporarily so that there is time to scream and to run etc.

GnomeDePlume · 09/09/2023 08:45

We are taught from the get go to play nicely, to share, to give way, to comply. I know at the start boys are taught the same but somewhere along the way there is a divergence.

Boys get taught and socialised to compete more than girls. They get taught that the winner gets prizes. Is that where the sense of entitlement starts? 'I'm stronger than you so I am entitled to have sex with you'.

I'm not sure that total segregation is the answer for women. That creates an atmosphere where the only time men and women interact is for sex. This feeds into the idea that consent has been given simply by interacting with a man.

So do we need more integration not less?

TheABC · 09/09/2023 11:05

I do ju-jitsu with full-on contact wrestling and it's mixed sex, so I am usually partnered with men who are bigger & stronger than me. Even when they are being respectful (and I count most of them as friends), their strength and speed is shocking compared to mine.

I would not have a chance in a fair fight against a predatory man. However, thanks to my training, I also know the minimum I need to do in order to get free and get away. Don't hold back, don't be nice; go for the pressure points and vulnerable spots and run away as quickly as possible!

Even with all that...I don't think I would have a high chance of success. Add in vulnerability of being asleep, unconscious, being frozen in fear or just wanting it to be over because he's an abusive prick and you don't want to enrage him further- it's not surprising so many rapists succeed.

Victim blaming is the social fantasy that says victims had some kind of control over the outcome.

popebishop · 09/09/2023 12:53

All men are a risk, aside from segregating ourselves in our own society there's not much we can do about them, but we are able, to an extent, to limit our interaction with them, and attempt to spot the more dangerous males before something happens.

But by "interaction" you include "a man approaching me completely unasked for". I cannot limit this unless I limit existing in public.

I agree re being aware of the "tricks". But the point is, the future is unpredictable. You can't weigh up the risks of your actions when so much is unknown . Like i said earlier, walking down a different street, or getting on a different bus, may mean you avoid a rapist or run into one. You can't know.

popebishop · 09/09/2023 12:55

slore · 08/09/2023 02:05

It said "avoid" not "never". Also I wrote that poorly, I meant going out walking etc.

I'm not sure I understand. I have a lot of things I need to do, and/or would like to do, that involve walking after 5pm. Which of those should I avoid? By avoid, you mean "not do", right, or am I misunderstanding?

IwantToRetire · 10/09/2023 01:03

This is sort of related, but echos what some have said on this thread.

I skim read this article because I think walking to the nearest bus stop is a marathon and this woman has written about walking 1,000 miles across Europe on her own.

And this is in the sub heading:

I take risks on solo hikes, navigating animal traps and dangerous terrain. But for a woman, men are the biggest threat.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/sep/08/i-walked-1000-miles-alone-through-europe-and-learned-that-fear-is-the-price-of-freedom

Funny how the Guardian can permit this comment in a life style travel article, but bet they wouldn't allow a feminist / political article about how this ever present reality for women shapes our lives.

And we now have the added threat from men identifying as women intruding into spaces that previous men would have accepted no man should intrude into. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4889977-female-women-not-permitted-to-meet-without-male-women

I walked 1,000 miles alone through Europe – and learned that fear is the price of freedom

I take risks on solo hikes, navigating animal traps and dangerous terrain. But for a woman, men are the biggest threat. I do it to be more open to the world, in the hope it will be more open to me

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/sep/08/i-walked-1000-miles-alone-through-europe-and-learned-that-fear-is-the-price-of-freedom

grumpycow1 · 10/09/2023 01:15

donkra · 05/09/2023 10:24

The only thing that made me vulnerable to being raped was having the misfortune to know and trust a rapist.

This. I was at work when I was targeted, sensible clothes, he even picked me up and charmed my parents before taking me on the “date” where he then raped me. Questioned myself for 15 years whether I had imagined it /asked for it.

grumpycow1 · 10/09/2023 01:22

ArabeIIaScott · 06/09/2023 09:58

My god, how to counter the vastness of the bewitching culture that tells our daughters their most important quality is how they look. With a million different voices - every TV show, every book, every music video, every Tiktoker, every stranger talking about their hair/clothes/prettiness, every relative passing comment, judging them, every compliment and observation. The world grooms our daughters.

I do think this played a part in my assault. He knew how to charm me into trusting him by constantly telling me I was pretty etc. Maybe if I hadn’t had such low self-esteem and taught that looks were so important, he wouldn’t have got his hooks into me to start with.

Anewnamea · 10/09/2023 02:11

I used to work with teenage boys and they’d often fight and I’d feel their strength
and rage when I got in between them to split up fights. (And when I got them to carry crates of drinks I couldn’t 😂)
The average teen boy is far stronger than me who has a high muscle mass and is fairly fit. Of Course some women under attack will take a male predator by surprise and overpower him but he will probably just go and find another victim the same night

I can imagine even those trained in martial arts will have limited success against grown men.

Some of these perverts are even turned on by a “ good fight “ from a woman

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 10/09/2023 21:19

Viviennemary · 05/09/2023 10:45

Everyone needs to learn the best way to keep themselves as safe as they can. Women and men and children. Young people shouldn't swim in reservoirs in hot weather. Some do and sometimes it ends in tragedy. It isn't victim blaming to warn of the dangers.

Are you seriously fucking comparing an inanimate body of water to a rapist with the ability to make choices?

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 10/09/2023 21:27

All this "learn the warning signs" stuff really boils my piss. I'm autistic, I often can't spot the warnings and when I do spot them I don't have the social skills to smoothly extricate myself from the situation, especially if I'm with other people and so can't just walk out of the building.

Basically, all these people who are like "learn self-defence, learn to read the signs, learn blah blah blah" are basically saying "make sure he picks on the autistic woman, the girl with a learning disability, the woman with lupus who doesn't have the strength to fight". It's not feminist at all to throw the most vulnerable woman and girls under the bus like that.