Ways to lessen the risk of rape

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789f07e8-49aa-11ee-ae7e-1fff6c8e0528?shareToken=0d97e81f86763060709b5a5106cc7a9b

The idea that any form of precautionary behaviour from women is akin to 'victim blaming' seems like madness to me. A very sensible column from K Stock.

'Someone needs to tell young women what sort of world they live in and how best to defend themselves accordingly — imperfect certainly, but still better than nothing. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t always the same thing as telling women that if they don’t listen to sensible advice, they have no right to complain about whatever happens next.'

Another detail that I'd never considered is how insulting it is to suggest that it's mothers' responsibility to 'teach sons not to rape'.

I think the point that people are trying to make is that the ‘good advice’ about taking taxis with groups of friends etc is only relevant to a pretty small minority of situations in which rapes typically occur, and that, by making women and girls mistakenly feel that they can ‘prevent’ rape by following this advice, they equally mistakenly believe in the actual, horrific, event of rape that they could and should have ‘prevented’ it.
Advice that applies equally to sexual assault and other violent crime (eg mugging), and equally to men and women: sensible.
Advice that applies only to sex crime: dangerously close to victim blaming.

Ffs no one is saying don't teach your children how to keep themselves safe but the advice applies to both girls and boys and is not solely about rape. It is wise to stay in a group, its wise to pre book taxis, its wise to not drink too much, it reduces the risks of fights, being a victim of any sort of crime, reduces the risk of accidents.

The issue is when we focus that advice solely on girls and to protect them from rape when that out of all risks is the smallest. That and more emphasis is put on telling girls to protect themselves from rape than is put on boys telling them not to.

Most of the sensible advice given applies to both women and men
Most of the sensible advice given applies to a range of situations/dangers.

So why focus on women? Why focus on rape? Why focus on a specific circumstance of rape?

What about teaching girls and women about red flags for abusers? If the vast majority of rape happens in relationships then why not teach us how to spot the danger signs?

That's a really good suggestion, and there are a few books out there and several threads on here, there is the freedom programme.

Why is not widely done? Because society and MSM is still massively focused on one particular circumstance of rape and rape myths and most people sagely nod along with it and how "sensible" it all is.

I haven't read the whole thread...

But I feel as though having read a few comments I need to say... all of which are 100 percent fact.

1. Only men can rape.

You need to have a penis in order to rape. End of.

1. Women are far more likely to be raped than men.

Just, no. Overwhelmingly wrong.

Now, I could talk about this for hours. I am an activist on this subject.
But a few points to make...

In terms of preventing rape. I don't know if we ever will. But I do think in the UK specifically, education/ portrayal of rape on television is poor combined with poor justicesystem practices.
If together these issues are tackled, I think we have a chance to bringing the numbers down.

Stranger rapes are less common than domestic rapes. But there is little to no time on presenting this side of rape to the populace.
You are more likely to be raped in your own bed by your partner than you are walking down the street.
Of course, neither are mutually exclusive. Both or neither could happen to any person.

In my opinion, preventing rape is not about any one single action. It is about making rape a part of every day discussion, and removing the connotations that it is a dirty word. The only thing dirty about rape is the person committing it, but yet, the discussion is uncomfortable and taboo.

I agree that I should be able to walk naked through an alleyway at night, but does that mean I will? No it doesn't. Because I don't trust humans. (And I wouldn't subject anyone to seeing that!!!)

The government needs to teach the issues surrounding rape at school, and take away the idea that rape only happens when you're at a party or a club.
I was raped for 12 months on various occasions whilst subjected to a highly abusive relationship. They don't portray that in the media/ teach about this in schools. And that's statistically more likely. It's always a woman being dragged down an alley, violently, and screaming and fighting before submitting. That isn't a true reflection of rape. Afterall, freezing is perfectly normal reaction. I used to freeze daily and silently cry willing it to be over. But that isn't portrayed. At all.

Unfortunately in the UK we treat rape victims appallingly. And until that changes, there is no incentive not to rape people. You'll be out of prison in a few years if you get convicted. And the chance of a conviction are slim to none.

Agree this is a very sensible suggestion.

How much infringement of their basic freedoms are women supposed to accept?

We need to work, study, socialise. Yet we have to do these things while constantly looking over our shoulder and second guessing ourselves.

Is that co-worker a bit too friendly? Was that pat on the bottom deliberate or accidental? Are my student flat mates and all their friends okay? If I go to bed will I need to lean a chair up against the door just in case my flatmate or his friend want to come in for a 'chat'? If I go out with friends and share a cab home am I okay being the last one dropped off? Can I walk down the unlit pathway to get to my home which takes 2 minutes or do I need to make a 15 minute detour round the main roads?

Men don't have to do all of this. They blithely carry on. They can't see the problem. They aren't weaker, smaller. They don't have that innate vulnerability. So they aren't bothered by weird co-workers, flatmates, fellow students. They share taxis home. It doesn't occur to them to think about the last female left in the cab. Their only worry about the unlit short cut is whether they will trip over in the dark.

It must be fun being male.

“2. Women are far more likely to be raped than men.
Just, no. Overwhelmingly wrong.”

There was a documentary about how the police and justice system handles rape a few years ago. It featured ten victims’ cases. Of those ten victims, one was male. The documentary stated that ten percent of rape victims are male.

Women are 50% of the population but 90% of rape victims. Men are 50% of the population but 10% of rape victims. That means that women are at higher risk of rape than men.

You state yourself that you are more likely to be raped in your own bed by your partner. The vast majority of the population is heterosexual, so that means that the majority of the victims of being raped in their bed by their partner are going to be female.

Yes, I am so confused by this. I am not a fan of people saying things are a FACT without providing any evidence to support this.

Here is the ONS data about victim characteristics of sexual assault:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/sexualoffencesprevalenceandvictimcharacteristicsenglandandwales

Women are more than 4x more likely to be a victim of any form of sexual assault and 10x more likely to be a victim of rape or attempted rape.

For completeness, this data is based upon the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime. This data will not capture crimes that are not reported and will therefore under-represent overall incidence (I have not reported incidence here - only a comparison of relative risk).

There is some information on under-reporting (see here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178917301908) to suggest that "non-disclosure to authorities is at least as prevalent amongst male as it is amongst female survivors" but not that it is SO much more prevalent that one could claim that women are not far more likely to be raped than men.

Activists often have an agenda, that's fine. Bang your drum. Present your agenda, back it up with facts, if there are any, not unsubstantiated opinions.

I sense you are angry with what I said. In my reply to you, I said "I’m not advocating for not sharing age appropriate advice for staying safe."

Giving your children safety advice, making sure they understand about consent and boundaries, being open and communicating with them, and avoiding blame and shame are all really good foundations for supporting healthy relationships. I do this with my children now. I don't talk about stranger danger and I won't talk to my daughter about how to "avoid" being raped.

A note on the crime survey:

'this data is based upon the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime. This data will not capture crimes that are not reported and will therefore under-represent overall incidence' [ISpyNoPlumPie]

You mean, crimes that are not reported in the face to face survey? Just to clarify, as 'not reported' implies to me not reported to/recorded by the police.

'The ONS publishes figures on the levels and trends of crime in England and Wales primarily based on two sets of crime statistics: the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) and police recorded crime data. Each source has different strengths and limitations but together they provide a more comprehensive picture of crime than could be obtained from either series alone.'

Info here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesprevalenceandtrendsenglandandwales/latest

and here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/methodologies/userguidetocrimestatisticsforenglandandwales

Consent is something I think some or maybe a lot of men don't quite get. They don't get that a woman can't simply push away unwanted attention. Because they can.

The men I know have been genuinely shocked and upset when they have been in a position of vulnerability. It was such an alien concept.

Women (as someone said upthread) are still drilled to please and ‘be kind’ and this still gets massively in the way of learning to recognise and act on red flags. We are taught to be flattered when we are admired/desired - indeed, there are voices everywhere telling us that this is our primary function. Men are taught that women are objects of desire that they are entitled to consume, which is why sex and power and violence come together so toxically in rape.

Yes, all of this needs attention, too.

@ArabeIIaScott

"You mean, crimes that are not reported in the face to face survey? Just to clarify, as 'not reported' implies to me not reported to/recorded by the police."

I should have said not reported and/or not declared. I was referring to the survey and crime statistics. This would have more clearly captured under-reporting in both data sources. Apologies.

My god, how to counter the vastness of the bewitching culture that tells our daughters their most important quality is how they look. With a million different voices - every TV show, every book, every music video, every Tiktoker, every stranger talking about their hair/clothes/prettiness, every relative passing comment, judging them, every compliment and observation. The world grooms our daughters.

Haven't read the full thread but yes, absolutely there is a gulf between victim blaming and taking precautions to mitigate risks in any aspect of life.

I do understand how this can play into women's feelings of guilt and shame however, and the answer has to be to shift the focus onto men's predatory and violent behaviour.

@ArabeIIaScott

Yes, this is the environment we are all socialised into. My daughter went through a phase of asking me "am I beautiful?". She was very young at the time. I would tell her that how she looks on the outside of her body is the least important thing about her and then we would talk about the qualities that are important and how we demonstrate them. She doesn't ask me this anymore. And it would have been so much easier to say "yes of course you are darling". But I acknowledge that the impact that saying this has is small compared to the influences out in the whole wide world.

The world grooms our daughters.
So true.

Haven't read the full thread but yes, absolutely there is a gulf between victim blaming and taking precautions to mitigate risks in any aspect of life.

Of course there is! Some posts on this thread are really bizarre.

Why are we only still talking about boozy night out, skimpy clothes, stranger rape?

I've given personal safety advice to my DS and DD - it's not just sexual violence based advice it's theft risk or general violence as well.

Skimpy clothes is just rubbish - as should be seen as such by courts as well it's ridiculous it's often still not - though being able to run is useful.

But advice beyond that is often nebulous.

I think I have been teaching and modeling about good relationship and how they should expect to be treated all their lives - but it won't necessarily protect them from future DV relationships in their lives.

I haven't spelt out all the red flags explicitly because I'm not sure I know them all and frankly it easy to ignore warning signs. I have tried to not raise my children to be people pleasers to have the confidence to go against the grain and peer pressure - and I do try and tell them to trust their instincts - but some people have fucking brilliant masks that rarely slip and I just don't see how you account for that in any way.

I also try with actions and words to make them understand I will always have their backs - but can't account for them not confidence in that or having that trust eroded with time or by outside forces.

All that seems like common sensible and what most parents aim for - if people out there want to try and twist that into blaming rape victims for being subject of a crime well I can't stop that.

For me, the objection is to the connection that some people make between "follow this sensible advice, it might help to keep you safe" and "this will avoid you being a victim of x crime", or even reduce the chances of x crime occurring. This is particularly true when the crime is rape and/or sexual assault. There are so many myths and a great deal of misunderstanding about the circumstances in which these types of crimes are committed that I DO NOT think it is possible to give someone advice to "avoid" them being raped and that this leads to blame and shame. And as I have said before, that shame is harmful, both for the individual and society as a whole.

For sure there are mitigations but these are only relevant to certain situations.

'Don't be out alone at night' works for an occasional night out when you can share a taxi with your friends and factor it into your plans.

Far less useful if your shift means you are walking too/from work at 3am. A taxi every time is going to make serious inroads into what is already likely a low income.

'Watch out for red flags, listen to your gut, only meet up in a public place' absolutely for a first date.

Works less well when it's a co-worker or a flatmate (or their friends) in student accommodation. 'I don't want to work/share with X because they make me uncomfortable' will get you short shrift and lots of support for X because they are only being friendly, that's just how they are, they don't mean anything by it.

The list goes on.

They are not more likely to be raped, however, the majority of rape victims are women. Young men are at great risk of physical assault, but not sexual assault.