Ways to lessen the risk of rape

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789f07e8-49aa-11ee-ae7e-1fff6c8e0528?shareToken=0d97e81f86763060709b5a5106cc7a9b

The idea that any form of precautionary behaviour from women is akin to 'victim blaming' seems like madness to me. A very sensible column from K Stock.

'Someone needs to tell young women what sort of world they live in and how best to defend themselves accordingly — imperfect certainly, but still better than nothing. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t always the same thing as telling women that if they don’t listen to sensible advice, they have no right to complain about whatever happens next.'

Another detail that I'd never considered is how insulting it is to suggest that it's mothers' responsibility to 'teach sons not to rape'.

Do you not believe me that rape isn't analogous to most other crimes, in terms of convincing people that a crime actually took place?

Of course I do, but that's neither here nor there, as I wasn't comparing the two crimes in ever aspect.

Let's approach it from the other side. Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?

Not that she's to blame or that in an ideal world the onus should be on the woman to prevent it. But as a statement of fact, do you agree that many times there is a foreseeable risk of potential rape/sexual assault, and hence by definition steps could have been taken to prevent it?

If yes, why is it offensive to teach women about such hypothetical scenarios and potential risks?

That isn't victim blaming, it's forewarning potential victims to make sure they don't end up becoming actual victims.

Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?

No I don't. Not by taking reasonable steps. I think that's pretty rare.

To be clear: I think most women do take reasonable steps, and that most of the rapes that do occur happen in spite of that, and not because women have failed to take those steps.

Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?

I haven't had one yet that could've been prevented, unless you count going on residential, having a grandfather or a maths tutor putting yourself at risk.

You know when nothing ever happened? Parties, clubs etc, drunk , skimpily dressed or not.

But anecdata is not data.

So let's look at some data.

For the years ending March 2017 and March 2020 combined, victims who experienced sexual assault by rape or penetration since the age of 16 years were most likely to be victimised by their partner or ex-partner (44%). This was closely followed by someone who was known to them other than a partner or family member (37%), which includes friends (12%) and dates (10%)

Let's approach it from the other side. Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?

You mean by not dating men.

Oh and btw, when there's one of you and 5 of them, no matter how sober,fits,strong or how awesome your runners are.. you're fucked anyways.

“Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?”.

No. I completely and utterly do NOT agree. I REALLY don’t agree with the word many, nor some, not even any.

To you it sounds callous. That does not mean it is. That does not mean that is what the person said or implied. That is your interpretation and your interpretation is not a fact. I do not say this with the intention of being cruel or attacking your interpretation. I only wanted to highlight that that others - myself included, may come to another conclusion from that post.

As a parent of daughters I can guide them just as parents of sons can guide them.

Sadly as a parent to girls, I have to have a different conversation with my girls. The fear that someone could rape them, and frustration I can’t say even if you do all these things there are men out there that could still be a risk to them. And it’s not your fault.

I have a close friend and she’s taught her son well. He has walked away from friendships as he didn’t like certain things the male group said - he hated the inside jokes slight sniggering that men do. But it’s been hard for him. A society needs to shift its thought process and it can only come from one side.

Rape is the worse, it’s a power thing, used from war to install fear , to knowing I can’t walk my dog in the woods alone - fear. And sadly even if I did everything as a women the risk is still high.

Let's approach it from the other side. Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?

I'm adding my voice to others saying no there is nothing the victim could do in the majority of cases. This is why framing the advice as to protect girls/women from rape is wrong.

My interpretation is not a fact, no, but it's as valid as that of others' interpretation.

I think that the choices I make can lessen my chances of being raped, yes. And, interestingly, whether that is true or not, or whether the margin that I am reducing the likelihood of being raped is tiny or not, that belief gives me the confidence to go about my life relatively untrammalled by fear and that includes things like going into the woods alone or going out at night.

What are the choices you are making and how do they help?

I’m not saying it is not valid. This was your comment:

“‘the implication that women should allow themselves to be raped to avoid 'passing on' the rape to another woman is just horrible.”

You made that implication. That was a result of your inference. It was not what the PP said and not the only way to interpret what was said. This is not about validity. It’s about you ascribing a thought process to someone else that was your thought process and then passing a moral judgement about that which they did not say, it’s “just horrible”. It might be horrible if the PP had said it, but they didn’t.

There are always going to be rapists. Even if we had harsher sentences and better convinctions (which we absolutely should) there will still be rapists. As there will still be deranged psychopaths. These people exist within the spread of humans.

I will absolutely teach my daughters the bestways to minimise the risk of falling prey : walking home in groups, getting taxi's together, not leaving drinks unattended etc etc.

To imagine a world that has no male rapists is a utopia : nice ideal but has no bearing in reality.

I'm not about to sacrifice my daughter's safety on the altar of this utopian fantasy to prove some point about it being men's responsibility.

You were comparing being scammed, and kept going back to "you can ask all these questions about for example being scammed. Yet nobody has a problem with an article how to avoid being scammed."

So do you accept that comparing the two crimes is rather irrelevant, as they are treated completely differently due to the issue of consent?

Additionally, you don't get scammed by someone physically overpowering you. It's usually done at a distance. That's why advice on it is supposed to work - because you can look for logical flaws, phone specific numbers if you suspect you're at risk, etc. That advice will not stop you being raped. That advice does not stop you going for a drink with a friend.

Do you agree that many times a rape could have been prevented by the victim?

No - because something would have had to be different, and you're not saying what. If the victim carried a gun, perhaps. If the victim happened to pick a different turn off, perhaps. If the victim's mum happened to come and surprise her, perhaps. If the victim managed to poke their thumb 2cms to the left and actually make contact with an eyeball, perhaps (although possibly put them in more danger). Bringing in 'sliding doors' alternative realities doesn't exactly help. Unless you are saying 'a 3in longer skirt/ trainers/not smiling/ would have reduced the risk to the point that it didn't happen' which is bizarre. You're asking people for hindsight.

But as a statement of fact, do you agree that many times there is a foreseeable risk of potential rape/sexual assault, and hence by definition steps could have been taken to prevent it?

You're confusing overall risk at group level with a binary 'an event did or did not occur' for an individual. Risk can increase or decrease but we will never know in advance which steps for each individual reduce the risk below the threshold of not happening unless you get to 'do not go out or let anyone into your home'. (Obviously 'do not come into contact with a rapist' would suffice but people tend not to tell you in advance that they are rapey).

There is so much guesswork involved in trying to assess which actions are safe and none of it is guaranteed. Do I ignore the creepy guy trying to talk to me on the train, or is it safer to smile and not get his back up? Is that inviting unwanted attention? Is it better to ask this other group of people for help, or will that turn their attentions on me and invite opportunists playing white knight?

If yes, why is it offensive to teach women about such hypothetical scenarios and potential risks?

I haven't said it is, btw.

I don’t believe that by avoiding victim shaming we are not able to discuss realities?
Certainly agree that we as parents continue to discuss the prevalence and types of predatory sexual assault with our children .
For example, I do teach my daughter that being female makes her vulnerable and that it doesn’t matter what she wears, how she behaves or where she is. I have also discussed that drink spiking is rife and ways that she and her friends can help to avoid this. Incidentally for the poster who thought this was new, it was rife in the 80s and 90s too, but women were victim shamed to such an extent that they didn’t report as much.

I was explaining how the PP's comment sounded to me. I was explaining my interpretation and my response to it.

I still don't understand why suggesting that women and girls are given information on minimising risk is wrong because the man will 'just rape someone else'.

That passes the responsibility onto women for the man raping someone else.

“I will absolutely teach my daughters the bestways to minimise the risk of falling prey : walking home in groups, getting taxi's together, not leaving drinks unattended etc etc.” This is general advice about staying safe that would benefit a son as well. How does it help to “avoid” rape when these are not the circumstances in which most rapes occur? Do you think your daughter would feel blamed and ashamed if something happened to her if she didn’t follow this advice or even if she did due to the ever prevalent belief that the risk of rape can be minimised or completely removed by the victim? And what lengths should we go to if this is not enough? What other steps should women and girls take?

“I'm not about to sacrifice my daughter's safety on the altar of this utopian fantasy to prove some point about it being men's responsibility.”

Are you ensuring her safety with your approach? I’m not advocating for not sharing age appropriate advice for staying safe. What I am saying is that you can’t prevent yourself from being raped and the idea you can is harmful.

@ISpyNoPlumPie off the top of my head: no hitchhiking unless it's part of the culture to do so. No canal towpaths unless busy (a bit of a strange one). No getting trashed to the point of blacking out. Stick with friends on a night out when half cut. Take a lot of self defense classes. Carry pepper spray. Don't wander around unknown foreign cities in the dark against local advice, or without local advice on where is safe. Don't accept anything (drinks, presents, anything) from rich powerful men and don't accept invitations to their homes/hotel rooms ever, under any pretext. If alone, always find somewhere secure or public to sleep or don't sleep. Trust your gut. Avoid large groups of drunken men.

Not exhaustive and certainly not foolproof but it's given me the confidence to travel the world as a single young woman and live my life to the full as an older one. So whether it's true or not hardly matters, I do know I've avoided 2 rapes.

I don’t think anyone has said that - I don’t think I have said that, and I don’t think that. I think that giving women and girls advice about how to minimise the risk of rape:

1. perpetuates harmful stereotypes about those who are victims of rape
2. contributes towards shame and blame of people who are victims of rape
3. suggests an element of control on the part of the victim that does not exist
4. obscures the reality of the circumstances within which most crimes such as rape or sexual assault occur as they focus on stranger threat
5. places responsibility on the victim and avoids addressing roots causes and societal approaches to addressing violence against women and girls

And it’s so depressing because it’s so prevalent. I’m sure you will recall after Sarah Everard’s rape and murder a police commissioner said she should not have agreed to be arrested. I don’t agree with you but for THESE reasons, not the one you stated.

You cannot ever remove the risk of being raped entirely, of course not. You do know we are discussing the real world here? we are all real women who have lived experiences, we're not fucking idiots.

Of course there are things my daughters can do to increase the chancea of safety. It's foolish to think otherwise.

we tell children to look both ways when they cross the road, even though this doesnt minimise the risk entirely. We don't say ' oh i wont bother because they could get hit in a multitude of other ways'. We logically (not through a political lens) know that this will somewhat reduce the risk, so we do it.

this makes me laugh. it sounds straight out of some theory based social science essay, where you just make vague links to prove a point.

Yeah got ya. All us women who actually have streetwise will continue to give our girls good advice.

also, as we're in the real world here, you do know that, MULTIPLE THINGS CAN EXIST AT THE SAME TIME!! wow.

amazing I know, so as a mum I can:

give my daughters sound safety advice

make sure they know that anyone crossing their boundaries is the one on the wrong, never them.

that I am a safe person to talk to about these things

that I will always believe and never shame them

That there are some terrible men who are very manipulative and we have all been duped on our lives.

if we do want to look at this through a political lens, then I say:

so you are not going to arm your daughter with good advice because some men will try to make her feel like its her fault... right. So who is that decision benefiting? the men who will CONTINUE to rape and CONTINUE to blame her?