KJK suing Australian Liberals for defamation

[fromorbit]

UK women’s rights activist Kellie-Jay Keen has issued John Pesutto and his entire leadership team with defamation concerns notices
UK women’s rights activist Kellie-Jay Keen has issued John Pesutto’s entire Victorian Liberal leadership team with defamation concerns notices, giving them 28 days to apologise and pay compensation for making “grossly misconceived, wilfully vexatious, and wretchedly false” claims, or face federal court action.

In her legal letter sent to the Liberal leader, his deputy David Southwick, upper house leader Georgie Crozier and her deputy Matt Bach on Monday, Ms Keen claims their conduct has seen her become the target of “extreme hate, abuse, harassment, and stalking”, and culminated in her “being physically attacked” and “placed in life threatening danger” at a Let Women Speak rally in New Zealand.

Archive of full report from The Australian:
https://archive.is/lWNTN#selection-255.5-255.135

Brilliant move as it will really help Moira Deeming's case against her party. Also further reveals the crazy sexism going on in Australia.

NB Reminder Australian Liberals are actually politically somewhat like UK Tories.

People are known for jumping to the wrong conclusions! We know KJK abhors Nazis and has no patience for any of that.

KJK used a Nazi Barbie profile picture and not as a one off. It is one of a Barbie in an SS uniform except the red swastika armband was cropped out on her profile pic to make it a bit less obvious. The reverse image searches of its source, showed it is the Nazi Barbie image she used.

The OP link quotes by her lawyers and KJK herself admit she did indeed knowingly use the Nazi Barbie profile picture as a “sod you” because she’d been called a Nazi Barbie over her blonde hair on SM in arguments.

So, it was an Anti-Semitic joke she done, no question. Although I don’t think she realised or intended it to be anti-Semitic, she was caught up in the argument, fed up of being attacked, knew she wasn’t a Nazi that it was the most unfair allegation to smear her with on SM and just really did not think it could possibly be used against her in a serious fashion as she is the farthest thing from a neo nazi…but now it is being used against her. So freaking sad.

The dossier didn’t allege she knowingly associates with far right including neo Nazi…can her lawyers successfully argue it was implied?

Wouldn't the fact that she was called one across the press, and in social media, and even told that doing up her zip was the secret signal of a white supremacist, be enough to show that most people absolutely thought it was implied.

And if it wasn't, then they can definitively say so in court.

I said nothing about foreign nationals making antisemitic jokes in Australia being prosecuted in Australia? Confident about what? Example of what being allowed?

Was that before or after the dossier was published?
If after, then that is definitely part of a campaign of harassment and part of the damage to her reputation and she should bring that to court.

No. I haven't been the one who is saying whether she will win or not.

I am saying she is going through the Federal Court system and with a Judge who is fully aware of the precedent that they will set with this case. I am saying there are facts in that dossier that are completely untrue or at the very best they have been presented in a way that has been misrepresented. Her honesty about her views on nazis are published, back in 2019. Something that the dossier seems to have missed out completely too.

I don't know what the outcome of this trial will be. But I also believe enough in people's egos that if the legal team did not consider that there was a case, that they would not take such a high profile case.

Let's also look at the outcomes here:

She loses. What will this do to her reputation? It is already well known that there are these allegations against her. Has it stopped her? No. Has it stopped people working with her? Yes. Will any woman working with her stop working with her? Yes, most likely if they believe the evidence presented against her.

Will she bring 'gender critical feminists' into disrepute? I doubt it at this stage because anyone worried about their reputation has distanced themselves from her.

But then again, using the exact same style of rhetoric as is being used against her, many people in the world will be tarnished, using that exact same rhetoric. In fact, using the same rhetoric, it won't fucking matter if anyone then releases a statement stating they don't believe in the same things that KJK believes. People can make the same accusations and get away with it.

What else will happen? People will continue to leverage the false claims and the very weak evidence against her.

In short, she will either continue or she will not.

And the Australian law system will be the weaker for allowing such weak evidence to be used to defame someone.

She wins. What do you think this will do? Maybe, just maybe, it will stop activists and media from misrepresenting women's rights campaigners. Maybe it will stop fuckwits flinging around accusations of unfounded 'Nazi' and 'far right' to discredit or shame others.

Now, shall we go through the dossier rationally and discuss it? No? why not?

Thank you Spartacus.

Shit I just read this defence in your link and my stomach dropped

• *honest opinion – the publication was a statement of opinion rather than an assertion of fact.

😱😭

Can Pesutto just shrug and say well that was my honest opinion and drop the mic in court?

I know this isn't going to be popular, but I think KJK is taking a big risk with this libel action.

I certainly think she could easily lose.

"Anti-Semitic nazi jokes are hate speech under the malicious communications act" from your post.

I am pointing out that KJK has broken no UK law with any comment or image she has posted. I am pointing out that a court would be leaving themselves open to appeal, in my unexpert opinion, to consider an image posted as an act of rebellion that is NOT illegal in the country it was posted in, to be considered so in a court trial using the malicious communications act of the country where the court trial will take place.

I am not an expert, but this would not make sense at all. If she was an Australian citizen in Australia at the time of posting such imagery, she would know then that it had the potential to be prosecuted and that it was not acceptable. In Australia. She again posted these images in the UK and has not been prosecuted for it.

Pesutto has asserted it is fact through his actions I would think. He may have even stated that he believes it is fact right at the beginning but I would have to check.

@Helleofabore
No. I haven't been the one who is saying whether she will win or not.
I haven’t been either?

Now, shall we go through the dossier rationally and discuss it? No? why not?
My second post did that though in the sense that I summarised the bits of the dossier that KJK and her lawyers have admitted (not refuted). There is not much left really in regards to being about KJK that could be construed as defamatory towards KJK.

I think fundamentally we do have a difference faith in justice systems. What we really need in an Australian lawyer on this thread to give us a bit of their expertise.

So, it was an Anti-Semitic joke she done, no question. Although I don’t think she realised or intended it to be anti-Semitic, she was caught up in the argument, fed up of being attacked

I wouldn't call something an "anti semitic joke" just because a Nazi uniform was involved.

Comedians can dress up as Nazis without it being in any way "anti semitic".

Yeah it does read very fact-like:
”Pursuant to clauses 57 and 59 of the Constitution, the reasons for such expulsion being, on the evidence contained in the attached Annexure hereto, that Ms Deeming, on 19 March 2023 and in days preceding that day, conducted activities in a manner likely to bring discredit on the Parliament or the Parliamentary Party, such conduct by:
(a) on 19 March 2023 and on days prior organising, promoting and attending a rally where Kellie-Jay Keen (also known as Posie Parker), was the principal speaker in circumstances where Ms Keen was known to be publicly associated with far right-wing extremist groups including neo-Nazi activists;…”

Oh, what I’d give for an Australian lawyer right now…

"We can’t really do that until KJK states what exactly in the dossier is the lie or lies though? None of us can."

There is already evidence out there FFS.

No. 9. Refers to 'In 2019, Keen posted a photograph on the internet with Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen, a Norwegian neo-Nazi who was probed by police after his comments against Jews and denial of the Holocaust.'

NO! SHE didn't post the photograph and the evidence they use is clearly HIM posting it.

No. 11 & 12 Look at the transcript they refer to where they are stating someone quoted 'the big lie'! FFS! Sorry, using a text to describe how a political movement happens in the face of being called nazis is not illegal. Have you read the script of the video? have you even listened to it? It is number 11 & 12 in the dossier.

Again, shall we go through this dossier and point out the falsities? If not, why aren't you interested?

Ok, well, the posts you responded to was a separate conversation about a woman Alison who was prosecuted and did go to jail in the U.K. for online anti-Semitic jokes under the malicious communications act, so I completely did not get why you were suddenly going on about Australia and foreign nationals at all. Now youre saying you were talking about KJK in Australia? when that post you responded to was a conversation about Alison. Sorry, but you’ve got me all confused here.

Sorry @Helleofabore but why haven’t you been doing this to ease my worries instead of attacking me personally? You could have done similar to me and listed the points in the dossier and said T or F to each one. Why didn’t you? We don’t all have the access to the evidence that you do or the expertise that you have?

As I said before are we not allowed to be supporters AND worried? Why are you grilling me so aggressively when I’ve said from the start I am no expert and I’m worried because of what she has just admitted linked by the OP’s letter and you’ve had all this at your fingertips?

Please, please..,if you have this info…post it.

Because billabong there is a lot of information. You seem more interested in your own claims yet you haven't seemed to have done one skerrick of research for yourself.

I don't know if you are here in good faith. You are now accusing me of not providing you with information.

I think public opinion has shifted a lot since 2005 when Prince Harry wore one to a costume party. Most would view it as anti-Semitic. But an online profile is less offensive than actually dressing up in Nazi clothes I’d say as well. So hard to say how badly it would reflect, especially since KJK was provoked.

The transcript for Lisa Morgan.

———

Language is the thing. And I am here. I went to Speaker’s Corner almost two years ago and was far too scared to speak. And I tell you, I am not scared now. I am really ready to talk.

Now, I am going to talk to you about something I have not seen in the press. I am a hypnosis practitioner and have been doing hypnosis for 30 years and helping people to hypnotise others. And I know about language. I know that this is based on something we call the ‘big lie’.

Do you know the ‘big lie’? The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf. The big lie is such a big lie that ordinary people like us think, ‘Well, that can’t be a lie. Because I have never tell as big a lie as that.’ We only lie in small ways. The big lie… There is one big lie going on and it is being done by men, in the early part of the 20th century.

It began when they had an erotic fantasy. And they decided they were going to sell us the ‘big lie’. And what is the big lie? The big lie is that that ‘transwomen are women’. But they are not, are they? They are men, and we know that.

So let me just spend a couple of minutes telling you a bit how this hypnosis works.

Repetition. Repetition is hypnotic. The more you repeat it, the more you believe it. The more you hear ‘transwomen are women’, the more a shadow of that big lie, lies in your head.

I am sure that I am not alone in that I am sat at home and thinking, maybe there is, you know, maybe they do have female thought patterns. No! The effing don’t! All the thought patterns I have, are my thought patterns and I have as much DNA that is female in my toenail that Izzard doesn’t have in any part of him.

So the thing is, you start to believe it. You start to believe it. And if you repeat an idea over and over again, and people start to believe it, and you want them to believe it, that is called affirmation. Affirmation is what hypnotists use to make you believe something. So, ‘be kind’ is an affirmation.

If you are sympathetic to this ideology, this ideology that I call the ‘trans phallus - ey’. If you are sympathetic, then you are affirming. Everytime you call a he who says he is a she, she, you are affirming. Affirmation makes people believe things. If you repeat it and you repeat it. I hope that I am repeating this enough that you will be in no doubt, no doubt ever, that a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

So how to stop this, what is called ‘gaslighting’, what is called brain washing.

Manage your emotions. Don’t match them. Don’t get sympathetic. Don’t go ‘there there dear’.

Break the chant. Pour cold water over their lies. Do it realistically or do it with your words. Your honest words break people out of compliance. If you are honest, they cannot stay where they are, cos it is all about stake management. We have to manage our emotions.

Refuse to affirm.

And the best thing is laugh. I know that I am not laughing now, but I do laugh a lot.

And I want to just give you one last tip on hypnosis. Don’t ever say to someone, ‘transwomen are not women’. Because our unconscious mind does not think ‘not’. It only thinks it is transwomen, women, transwomen, women. Transwomen, well they are women, aren’t they? They are women! Emotions. Emotions are what caught them. They got caught, not by rational things, but they got caught by emotions. And how are we going to break this is by using emotions that shake them out. So, they can’t find that emotional sympathy ever again.

Thank you.

Let Women Speak - Newcastle - Part 2 time 8.59
https://www.youtube.com/live/vgxjSGeCE4Q

Yes there is alot of information. I’m doing my best like everyone to share and go through it. You seem more of a question and not share type. That’s ok. But I’m sorry, I don’t have the answers you want from me on Australian law and the court system and that is largely no doubt a source of my worries for KJK. You seem very confident and if you have a legal analysis, I’d love to hear it.

I’ve said I’m not the expert on KJK that you are although I do support and admire her. However, I think for my own MH that it is best if I gently disengage from you at this point on this thread as you’ve been casting aspersions as to my character, intentions, and good faith. I just can’t deal with that? Im here on the thread looking for reassurance and information about KJK’s case not to be interrogated like I’m suspected of something.

I’ve enjoyed our conversation and I look forward to reading your posts as always.

The Norwegian claim No. 9 in the dossier:

KJK's wikipedia page has been updated over the past months and this paragraph has been deleted:

"In February 2019, Keen traveled to Norway and posed for a photo with Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen, a far-right Hungarian politician."

And after that version in October 2022, it was amended because it was this in January 2023:

"In February 2019, Keen traveled to Norway to speak at a red-brown Mot Dag conference alongside Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen, a far-right Norwegian politician and Holocaust denialist, who she took a selfie with. Keen later said she didn't know who Lysglimt was.[2][42][43]"

Strange how the dossier says:

"In 2019, Keen posted a photograph on the internet with Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen, a Norwegian neo-Nazi who was probed by police after his comments against Jews and denial of the Holocaust:2 see Elliards, Xander (4 February 2023)"

Again, note the error that 'Keen posted'. No. She did not there is absolutely no evidence of her interacting with Johansen. She was at a conference delivering a session.

I'm not sure it will actually help to dissect the dossier or discuss what had been admitted to or explained or denied. I don't know much about defamation law but I think that other aspects such as intent and context come into it.

No. 13 - 18

No. 13

"On 18 March 2023, a group of neo-Nazis, organized by the National Socialist Network, performed the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament House and displayed a banner which read "DESTROY PAEDO FREAKS""

From the video posted on facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=229529329488872

The first nazi mention I found was at 4.05 minutes on a live feed where KJK arrived at 28.49 minutes. They were video'ed at 5.30 minutes. They were well in place by this time so already there.

The NSN, Neo nazis, moved to the middle of the street in front of Parliament House at 36.00 minutes. They didn't move to the stairs 'beside' the women's speaking until 50.48 minutes.

They were walked out by police at 1:06.00.

They were 'beside' the women for 15:12 minutes. So around 1/4 of the time that they were there.

To be generous, they were up closer to the women for 30 minutes. So less than half of their time if you want to get really ridiculous and declare in the middle of the road to be 'on the side' of the women.

I would suggest that there might be some interesting discussion about how these men came to be in that area, why the Victorian Police let them in.

This 'dossier' has merely 'implied' that there is a link. It has not definitively said there is a link. So, frankly, if they are relying on this as evidence, there is absolutely nothing here to provide any substance to the claim. At all. Not even on the video evidence.

No. 14 Is a single image taken with the date of 7th June (no year provided and no link at all for evidence to be checked) that is not illegal in the country it was posted. This is also then counter to her previous declaration in 2019 about how abhorrent she finds nazis.

No. 15. "On 18 March 2023, Ms Deeming met with and appeared in a video following the rally, drinking champagne with Kellie-Jay Keen, Katherine Deves and Angie Jones."

No. 16 is a hyperlink

No. 17 "In the video, Ms Deeming and Keen did not roundly condemn the men who made the Nazi salute and dissembled by seeking to question whether those men were organised by the trans-rally participants or were assisted police."

The women at the time did not know who these men were. There is no evidence that they had any contact with them. I will try to find the tweets where the men denounced feminists within days of the event in any case.

Maybe someone else has a link to those tweets. They were mentioned on threads but right now I don't have time to go and search for them.

No. 18 "At 4.41pm on 18 March 2023, Angie Jones posted to Twitter the words “Nazis and women want to get rid of paedo filth. Why don’t you?.” "

This post from Angie has been deleted, and I think apologised for but it also has been explained. The meaning of the post is that even the most abhorrent people, nazis, want to protect children from paedophiles, why were all the people who were complaining about the the sign being held up.

Angie Jones is in no way a nazi sympathiser. It is a horrendous accusation that has been implied by this dossier that she has done this because she is politically aligned with the Neo-nazis.

No. 8.

"In 2019, Keen gave an interview to Soldiers of Christ Online, a far-right network: see Elliards, Xander (4 February 2023)"

This is an impromptu interview by the looks of it at a Hyde Park event.

This is the description from their YouTube channel :

"And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ."

The channel seems to belong to a person called 'Kay'. She seems to be part of

https://www.soldierofchrist.online

I ask people to listen to the video and tell us all what it is that Kellie Jay said that is not what is said on this board regularly.

Again, she has been asked questions while she is at an event and it seems to be unplanned and unscripted. No evidence of any association.

I would also like anyone to explain to me where to find the evidence that SOCO in the UK is a far-right extremist group? Because I have searched and cannot find why this person's interview with KJK has been included in this dossier. I am not saying they don't deserve to be on the list, but I cannot find it and I have no UK cultural reference for extremist religious groups to draw on to find out where to look.

Anyone got anything?

So, so far, it seems that No. 7

"In October 2019, Keen appeared in a video interview with Jean-François Gariépy, a far-right YouTuber who advocates for a "white ethno-state" and who has made videos with neo-Nazis Richard B. Spencer and Mark Collett as well as former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke.1 The interview with Jean-François Gariépy is documented by the following material:"

Is not denied, but has been followed up with a denouncement.

That denouncement was not included in the dossier.

This was in the article but not screens hotted as of September 2020

"Parker told PinkNews that she was asked to go on the show by Gariépy’s assistant, and that she gave his channel a cursory look and “nothing at the time stood out as anything unusual or problematic”."

"She added: “I make it my business to avoid researching or policing the entire spectrum of someone’s views, I think the mutilation of healthy children’s bodies is too important, and so it’s not usual for me to do an FBI style background check."

"“I am, of course, concerned at the accusations I have heard since recording the show. The misogyny was not something that surprised me, it is very much at home in both the left and the right of politics, whether it be the enforcement of traditional roles through to pretending we don’t know what a woman is."

"“White supremacy and the racism that fuels it has no place in a civilised society, I abhor those views and the people that hold them. As a free speech advocate I think dialogue, even with those with the most odious prejudices, is essential. How are we ever to change or challenge them if we don’t engage? These days so many people are called Nazis and far right that the prophetic warning that we will no longer recognise the real ones is beginning to come true.”"

oh... thanks. I just spent over an hour delivering you information.

I will stop now. Thank you.