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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is Australia worse than UK for 'woke' agenda

155 replies

Lizzypet · 20/08/2023 19:17

Anyone here living in Aus? We lived there for 9yrs until 2016 and all of us except youngest child have citizenship. Considering possibly moving back at some point, and think I remember reading that the 'woke' situation is as bad as, or worse than here? I'm aware I'm being very generic in my description, and that a lot of people don't like the term Woke, but concerned about DC (ages 6 & 8) and what they might be exposed to in school, university etc. Grateful for any input. Thanks

OP posts:
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Rudderneck · 23/08/2023 11:59

Morestrangerthings1 · 23/08/2023 00:13

You aren’t completely wrong but not completely right.

“The issue with general terms and when to use them‘Indigenous’ and ‘Aboriginal’ are broad terms imposed on First Australians without consultation. These are not words they chose for themselves.
While the term ‘Indigenous Australians’ is in common use, many First Australians may not be comfortable with it.
Using ‘Indigenous Australians’ to refer to First Australians is relatively recent. Its use became popular through international discussions, where the term ‘indigenous’ is appropriate (with a lower case ‘i’). But it is a blanket term that homogenises a wide array of peoples and cultures. This can cause offence.
Due to the common use of ‘Indigenous Australians’ in our society, there may be times when you can’t avoid the term. It can come up in discussions with government organisations, in the names of some organisations or in grant applications.
If you must use it, remember to only do so when writing generally about Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander peoples. The term should always appear as ‘Indigenous Australians’ in the first instance, always with a capital ‘I’. Afterward you can use ‘Indigenous’, capitalised, so long as the context is correct and clear. Using ‘Indigenous’ alone is inaccurate.
Example
‘Indigenous Australians’ is a broad term and covers a large array of peoples. Often Indigenous peoples themselves do not identify using this term, they will use their local community, island or language group.
Indigenous peoples also have regional terms that they use for specific geographical locations, such as ‘palawa’ or ‘Noongar’ to name a couple.
Some people use Aboriginal ‘and/or’ Torres Strait Islander. This is a good idea when the audience isn’t clear or specific. It’s also important to realise that some individuals identify with both groups.”

From style manual.gov.au

Its complex, but basically this is not the place or the audience to use this word and I’m not the person to use it.

I’ve been been taught to avoid using “Indigenous” when talking about people. If First Nations Peoples, or Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples, want to refer to themselves as Indigenous (and many don’t) that is how they want to refer to themselves, but many people will not like it and find it offensive.

Using Indigenous you need to know and be sure of your audience. As I’m neither Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander it may cause offence for me to use the word “Indigenous” but wouldn’t when a First Nations Person uses it.

indigenous is never used with a small i - this is something I see on here commonly, and have seen on this thread.

I always go for the words most preferred by the people themselves.

I have no idea why the Voice to Parliament uses it, but it’s their right to use it, not mine. You’d be better off asking them. Complex.

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Back in the real world, people actually have to speak and write and use words, and probably are not going to be able to read a current (as in, last 10 days) research paper or do an exhaustive poll of the people in question to see what the current fashion is.

Though if we go by the rule that even if only a few people are offended, it's not ok, we may find we all need to just stay completely silent anyway, as there will be no language that doesn't annoy, offend, or otherwise isn't the preference of some.

JanesLittleGirl · 23/08/2023 12:13

Is deciding how to describe the people whose antecedents lived in Australia long before the first European arrived the biggest problem that they face today?

Isoqueen · 03/09/2023 10:44

No bit it’s a good distraction from increasing poverty and failing services ! Politicians love it.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/09/2023 11:11

Isoqueen · 03/09/2023 10:44

No bit it’s a good distraction from increasing poverty and failing services ! Politicians love it.

I don't think it's one or the other tbh. The N word isn't the biggest issue facing black people, but it's still highly offensive. But, when you start policing whether or not a word is capitalised, you have left the path of sanity.

And I totally agree about the distraction tactics. Conditions for many aboriginal people seem so much worse than they were 20 years ago - and they weren't good then.

Isoqueen · 03/09/2023 14:09

What’s the ‘n’ word for goodness sake? I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Isoqueen · 04/09/2023 06:47

Never hear it here- there are other equally unpleasant words which shall be nameless but not that one.

Zhuchi · 15/09/2023 03:34

I have lived in Australia since 1999. I am born and raised in Uk. Moved here when I was 24. Australia is incredibly misogynistic. But you’d know that having lived here. Australia is definitely a man’s country. If the opposite of woke is a backward thinking, cultural wasteland, with politicians that think it’s ok for staff to be sexually assaulted in parliament, then Australia is your place.

Zhuchi · 15/09/2023 03:40

Except sport and money.

Helleofabore · 15/09/2023 03:50

Zhuchi · 15/09/2023 03:34

I have lived in Australia since 1999. I am born and raised in Uk. Moved here when I was 24. Australia is incredibly misogynistic. But you’d know that having lived here. Australia is definitely a man’s country. If the opposite of woke is a backward thinking, cultural wasteland, with politicians that think it’s ok for staff to be sexually assaulted in parliament, then Australia is your place.

Are you comparing that to the UK? I really don’t think the UK is better and I have now spent time flipping back and forths in large chunks of time. Perhaps you don’t keep up with Westminster’s news. zhuchi?

PriOn1 · 15/09/2023 04:19

I guess there might be some similarities to comparisons between England and Scotland back when I moved between them in the 80s and 90s. Misogyny existed in both, but was much more open in Scotland, though there it was mixed with paternalism, which I don’t get the impression is the case in Australia.

So while the reality is that misogyny exists in both, it’s publically much less acceptable to admit it in England?

Though I might be out of date.

Zhuchi · 15/09/2023 04:20

Not comparing just giving my perception of how it is in Australia. And that the thing with these sorts of questions - they’re so subjective. I’m aware from friends and family back in UK that lots is going /has gone down the sh*tter.

seishonagon · 16/10/2023 12:54

Lizzypet · 20/08/2023 19:46

Not sure how anyone would know what my 'beliefs' are from this post, and it was on Mumsnet that I've read of people in Aus having a difficult time with women's rights etc.

On the ABC website, people who question gender ideology are referred to as 'anti-trans'.

seishonagon · 16/10/2023 15:38

Ingenieur · 21/08/2023 21:09

@Hippyhippybake

The closest I can fathom is that the blokishness and TWAW are linked thus:

"Any bloke who would willingly degrade himself by calling himself a woman can't be a real man, and is therefore a woman"

It comes from a place of über-masculinity

Spot on.

I've lived in both countries, and misogyny in Australia is distinctive in that women are judged negatively, by men, not only for being women (obvs the rubbish option) but for not being more like blokes, e.g., if you don't want to drink beer by the decalitre or watch football, that's considered strange. Femininity is despised even in women. Blokishness is the human standard.

Chivalry is non-existent. When I first came to the UK, I was absolutely gobsmacked by how polite men were.

Hippyhippybake · 16/10/2023 16:39

@seishonagon Ha ha, I had exactly the same experience and thought all the British men I was meeting must be gay!!

Helleofabore · 16/10/2023 17:21

seishonagon · 16/10/2023 15:38

Spot on.

I've lived in both countries, and misogyny in Australia is distinctive in that women are judged negatively, by men, not only for being women (obvs the rubbish option) but for not being more like blokes, e.g., if you don't want to drink beer by the decalitre or watch football, that's considered strange. Femininity is despised even in women. Blokishness is the human standard.

Chivalry is non-existent. When I first came to the UK, I was absolutely gobsmacked by how polite men were.

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Having spent much of my life along the East coast of Australia, I actually cannot reconcile your statements with my experience at all. And considering my family would probably fall into what is very much considered the type you would describe as very 'blokeish' types.

And having then also worked here in the UK for two decades as well, I find the men here no different to those in Australia.

You must have really come across some real shockers for you to have formed that opinion. But then, what is chivalry in your eyes?

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 16/10/2023 18:13

Helleofabore · 16/10/2023 17:21

Having spent much of my life along the East coast of Australia, I actually cannot reconcile your statements with my experience at all. And considering my family would probably fall into what is very much considered the type you would describe as very 'blokeish' types.

And having then also worked here in the UK for two decades as well, I find the men here no different to those in Australia.

You must have really come across some real shockers for you to have formed that opinion. But then, what is chivalry in your eyes?

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I absolutely recognise it.
I lived there for two years, however it was 20 odd years ago, and I did live in Kalgoorlie and work in loads of small town all over southern WA.
I expect where you live makes a massive difference.

Hippyhippybake · 16/10/2023 18:13

Just look at the way Julia Gillard was treated as an example. I found the blokeishness and obsession with sport overwhelming in Australia.

Helleofabore · 16/10/2023 18:21

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 16/10/2023 18:13

I absolutely recognise it.
I lived there for two years, however it was 20 odd years ago, and I did live in Kalgoorlie and work in loads of small town all over southern WA.
I expect where you live makes a massive difference.

Show quote history

I suspect it does make a difference. I grew up in a mining town, but it was mixed with agriculture as well. Many of my family are miners. I am not saying they don't have their moments, however, I really don't recognise the extreme 'drinking beer by the decilitre or watch football, that's considered strange' or that 'femininity is despised in women' is as widely spread in Australia or that it is worse than I have encountered here in the UK.

Helleofabore · 16/10/2023 18:30

Hippyhippybake · 16/10/2023 18:13

Just look at the way Julia Gillard was treated as an example. I found the blokeishness and obsession with sport overwhelming in Australia.

And Julia Gillard was treated any worse than female MPs in Westminster?

And can you tell me what you found obsessive with sport please? Is it because you found people were busy with sport and therefore hard to catch up with outside of sport, or that they enjoyed their sport and you felt excluded because you could not speak about it? Frankly, I watched some friends play live sport but never really spoke about it with family or friends and was not once 'shamed' for not following a team or for not knowing about it. And I have found the same degree of 'obsession' here with football / cricket / rugby etc.

The issue seems to be people are very quick to make negative general statements about Australia relative to the UK that I disagree with having spent large periods of time moving back and forth to both countries. Both have good points and bad points and frankly I was sacked for being pregnant here in the UK whereas I would not have been in Australia and there is quite a bit more I could say about the misogyny and sexism I have found here in the UK in men but to what point. What does it prove? That both countries have issues? What country does not?

Hippyhippybake · 16/10/2023 18:53

Perhaps Melbourne was different but I found the obsession with Aussie Rules just completely dominated life.

Sorry but I haven’t seen any female politician in the UK treated the way Julia Gillard was. Also, Gender self id was introduced in Victoria - I’m happy to say that won’t happen in England thanks to so many wonderful women who won’t be silenced.

CrazyArmadilloLady · 16/10/2023 18:58

Hippyhippybake · 16/10/2023 18:13

Just look at the way Julia Gillard was treated as an example. I found the blokeishness and obsession with sport overwhelming in Australia.

Come on, British men and football is next level (I’m neither Australian nor British (well, I do have a British passport due to living there for over a decade, but don’t feel or consider myself to be British) - so no skin in the game.

Hippyhippybake · 16/10/2023 19:04

Disagree, I remember when I first moved to the UK being surprised that I was unaware of the FA cup final or the big Premier League games - that wasn’t possible in Melbourne. Just look at the size of the stadiums in Oz relative to the population and compare them to Britain. I don’t believe there is any stadium in Britain which has the capacity of the MCG (happy to be corrected) and that’s one in one city.

Yes the Euros and World Cup are huge but they are only ever few years.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Oz but I love Aussie women more than the men!

seishonagon · 16/10/2023 19:49

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