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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is Australia worse than UK for 'woke' agenda

155 replies

Lizzypet · 20/08/2023 19:17

Anyone here living in Aus? We lived there for 9yrs until 2016 and all of us except youngest child have citizenship. Considering possibly moving back at some point, and think I remember reading that the 'woke' situation is as bad as, or worse than here? I'm aware I'm being very generic in my description, and that a lot of people don't like the term Woke, but concerned about DC (ages 6 & 8) and what they might be exposed to in school, university etc. Grateful for any input. Thanks

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Rudderneck · 22/08/2023 00:23

I think you have to consider gender ideology as part of the larger field of identity politics, and I guess what you could call ideological progressivism, which is a kind of quasi-religious, but secular, faith based belief system, combined with politics.

Many of the mainly English speaking former colonies seem to have embraced that kind of thinking wholesale. Gender ideology is just part of that. It fits within the progressive framework.

Why so many of these places took so much to that belief system is a really interesting question.

StartupRepair · 22/08/2023 01:16

For me it is a belief system about fairness. It is not fair for women not to have their own safe spaces. Nor is it fair for First Nations people to be ignored in the Australian constitution and unheard in policy matters. Nor is it fair for refugees and asylum seekers to be treated punitively. Nor is it fair for women to endure daily misogyny and escalating family violence.

Isoqueen · 22/08/2023 03:02

There is a load of crap on here about Australia. As for the rubbish about toilets in Victoria, welI I have lived here 50 years and I can tell you it just is not true. There are some unisex toilets but most are still Male and Female. As for ‘ woke’ it is not a word used here. We have a left wing government, bordering on a dictatorship in the state but we don’t hear much about gender inequality or trans people or anything much of that sort. It is all about a stupid referendum designed to divide everyone and cause problems with our First Nations people.

ChokkaQuokka · 22/08/2023 03:37

Isoqueen · 22/08/2023 03:02

There is a load of crap on here about Australia. As for the rubbish about toilets in Victoria, welI I have lived here 50 years and I can tell you it just is not true. There are some unisex toilets but most are still Male and Female. As for ‘ woke’ it is not a word used here. We have a left wing government, bordering on a dictatorship in the state but we don’t hear much about gender inequality or trans people or anything much of that sort. It is all about a stupid referendum designed to divide everyone and cause problems with our First Nations people.

I’ve had the dubious privilege of looking into toilet rules for a commercial renovation. It’s covered by the Australian building code, which is legally binding. It doesn’t vary by state.

Most facilities of any scale have to have single sex provision. Unisex facilities, including accessible toilets for people with disabilities, have to be enclosed cubicles with their own hand washing facilities.

You wouldn’t know this if you relied on a diversity consultancy to tell you what to do, but builders and architects know this.

Isoqueen · 22/08/2023 07:59

We have it all, though. Not just unisex. All the shopping malls and public buildings have the lot. So do the public conveniences in the street at this stage.

ChokkaQuokka · 22/08/2023 08:04

Isoqueen · 22/08/2023 07:59

We have it all, though. Not just unisex. All the shopping malls and public buildings have the lot. So do the public conveniences in the street at this stage.

Yes, exactly, I should have made this clearer.

Helleofabore · 22/08/2023 09:13

I was delighted last year when I went back on a trip to Queensland and saw a sign outside one of the department stores changing rooms that stated that the female changing room was for female people only. I wonder if that has been removed since.

Hippyhippybake · 22/08/2023 09:33

But if self id is in place the provision of women’s toilets can potentially become irrelevant.

InWalksBarberalla · 22/08/2023 10:28

Hippyhippybake · 22/08/2023 09:33

But if self id is in place the provision of women’s toilets can potentially become irrelevant.

Exactly, Tasmania and Victoria already have self-ID (not sure how far along the other states are). This includes the ability to change the sex recorded on the birth certificate.

CrazyArmadilloLady · 22/08/2023 10:30

Helleofabore · 22/08/2023 09:13

I was delighted last year when I went back on a trip to Queensland and saw a sign outside one of the department stores changing rooms that stated that the female changing room was for female people only. I wonder if that has been removed since.

Right, but if a man identifies as female…

ChokkaQuokka · 22/08/2023 11:51

It’s fair to say TW are using women’s toilets regardless of their birth certificate marker. The question is whether state law permitting birth certificates to be changed is determinative for Commonwealth legislative instruments like the building code, or for the Sex Discrimination Act. To my knowledge this hasn’t been tested. Which is why Tickle vs Giggle is important.

Helleofabore · 22/08/2023 12:01

See crazy, I just figured it was that they did not identify as female that it was safe. But that was then, this is now and a whole new level of crazy.

ThisOldWoman · 22/08/2023 12:54

@Morestrangerthings1 If you knew as much about the debate re The Voice and what the Traditional Owners of Australia want as you’d like people to think, you’d know never to refer to them as ‘indigenous’ (especially with a small ‘I’) as they let us know, loud and clear, repeatedly. It’s Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples or First Nations Peoples. Indigenous is used in reference to plants and animals.

But isn't the full formal title of The Voice "The Indigenous Voice To Parliament"?

Or is it only intended to represent the views of plants and animals?

PorcelinaV · 22/08/2023 14:12

Regarding "first nations peoples"... but they were never a nation in a political sense, and presumably didn't have an understanding of the territory in the sense of the borders of a country.

Not sure why they don't like "indigenous"?

IWillNoLie · 22/08/2023 14:25

no debate….

duc748 · 22/08/2023 18:10

PorcelinaV · 22/08/2023 14:12

Regarding "first nations peoples"... but they were never a nation in a political sense, and presumably didn't have an understanding of the territory in the sense of the borders of a country.

Not sure why they don't like "indigenous"?

I'm not an Aussie, but I follow Australian sport, and it seems to me that 'indigenous' is widely used without much protest, The NRL has an 'indigenous round' of fixtures every season (so does the AFL I believe, but I don't follow that). As a large proportion of the players are of indigenous descent, or otherwise BAME, if there was strong objection amongst them, I'm sure another term would be used.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 22/08/2023 20:07

PorcelinaV · 22/08/2023 14:12

Regarding "first nations peoples"... but they were never a nation in a political sense, and presumably didn't have an understanding of the territory in the sense of the borders of a country.

Not sure why they don't like "indigenous"?

As PPs have said, it's my understanding (not an Aussie but have worked with indigenous peoples in Australia as an HCP) that using indigenous is fine, as long as it's the correct context. It's lazy and rude to lump all the different indigenous people together when you mean one specific group e.g. Dharawal people - just as it would be lazy and rude to say "Asian" when you mean people from Gujarat, specifically. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to say "Asian" or "indigenous people" when you are genuinely talking about everyone from Asia/all indigenous people.

Either way, the purity spirals and aggressive policing of language about indigenous people by Australians who are not themselves indigenous is ridiculous, patronising, and a highly ironic example of white saviour complex.

ChokkaQuokka · 22/08/2023 21:48

PorcelinaV · 22/08/2023 14:12

Regarding "first nations peoples"... but they were never a nation in a political sense, and presumably didn't have an understanding of the territory in the sense of the borders of a country.

Not sure why they don't like "indigenous"?

There is certainly a sense of “Nations” within Aboriginal culture. Acknowledgments of Country often mention what nation a group is from. For example, central Sydney is the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. A little further west is Wangal land, also of the Eora nation. North of the harbour is Kuringgai nation.

“First Nations” is increasingly used as a general term but I have never heard any suggestion that “indigenous” or “Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people” are problematic.

MrGHardy · 22/08/2023 22:47

sadaboutmycat · 20/08/2023 19:39

Look up the definition of woke.
If it is the opposite of your beliefs, you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

Does it feel good playing moral apostle?

Morestrangerthings1 · 23/08/2023 00:13

ThisOldWoman · 22/08/2023 12:54

@Morestrangerthings1 If you knew as much about the debate re The Voice and what the Traditional Owners of Australia want as you’d like people to think, you’d know never to refer to them as ‘indigenous’ (especially with a small ‘I’) as they let us know, loud and clear, repeatedly. It’s Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples or First Nations Peoples. Indigenous is used in reference to plants and animals.

But isn't the full formal title of The Voice "The Indigenous Voice To Parliament"?

Or is it only intended to represent the views of plants and animals?

You aren’t completely wrong but not completely right.

“The issue with general terms and when to use them‘Indigenous’ and ‘Aboriginal’ are broad terms imposed on First Australians without consultation. These are not words they chose for themselves.
While the term ‘Indigenous Australians’ is in common use, many First Australians may not be comfortable with it.
Using ‘Indigenous Australians’ to refer to First Australians is relatively recent. Its use became popular through international discussions, where the term ‘indigenous’ is appropriate (with a lower case ‘i’). But it is a blanket term that homogenises a wide array of peoples and cultures. This can cause offence.
Due to the common use of ‘Indigenous Australians’ in our society, there may be times when you can’t avoid the term. It can come up in discussions with government organisations, in the names of some organisations or in grant applications.
If you must use it, remember to only do so when writing generally about Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander peoples. The term should always appear as ‘Indigenous Australians’ in the first instance, always with a capital ‘I’. Afterward you can use ‘Indigenous’, capitalised, so long as the context is correct and clear. Using ‘Indigenous’ alone is inaccurate.
Example
‘Indigenous Australians’ is a broad term and covers a large array of peoples. Often Indigenous peoples themselves do not identify using this term, they will use their local community, island or language group.
Indigenous peoples also have regional terms that they use for specific geographical locations, such as ‘palawa’ or ‘Noongar’ to name a couple.
Some people use Aboriginal ‘and/or’ Torres Strait Islander. This is a good idea when the audience isn’t clear or specific. It’s also important to realise that some individuals identify with both groups.”

From style manual.gov.au

Its complex, but basically this is not the place or the audience to use this word and I’m not the person to use it.

I’ve been been taught to avoid using “Indigenous” when talking about people. If First Nations Peoples, or Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples, want to refer to themselves as Indigenous (and many don’t) that is how they want to refer to themselves, but many people will not like it and find it offensive.

Using Indigenous you need to know and be sure of your audience. As I’m neither Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander it may cause offence for me to use the word “Indigenous” but wouldn’t when a First Nations Person uses it.

indigenous is never used with a small i - this is something I see on here commonly, and have seen on this thread.

I always go for the words most preferred by the people themselves.

I have no idea why the Voice to Parliament uses it, but it’s their right to use it, not mine. You’d be better off asking them. Complex.

StartupRepair · 23/08/2023 00:29

Thanks @Morestrangerthings1 I was wanting to respond and you have laid this out beautifully. I don't see this as being captured by ideology. I see it as learning more in order to do better.

IWillNoLie · 23/08/2023 01:04

I am a bit lost with the I and i. I would presume the use of indigenous in the context ‘First nations peoples are indigenous to Australia’ or are ‘indigenous Australians’ - a descriptor of the place of origin of the First Nations so small i. Or if talking about different nations then the area each nation originated from. I wouldn’t use a capital I as that would be like giving them the name “Indigenous Australian” which sounds like something you would impose on someone rather than you would call yourself. If you are indigenous (ergo only people living in that land as you form your group identity) you wouldn’t set out to define yourself such as to distinguish yourself from others who may enter that land at some point in the future?

InWalksBarberalla · 23/08/2023 02:30

We engage with Registered Aboriginal Groups and Traditional Owners Groups at work regularly and some groups are explicit that they don't approve of the term indigenous Australians (i or I) due to the link with flora and fauna as mentioned upthread. When you consider the historical context this sensitivity is more than reasonable.

(Noting that Australia is a very large country and different groups will have different opinions).

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