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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Cheryl Hole on LGBTQ representation

291 replies

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 16/08/2023 09:47

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66513419

'Cheryl has promised to "bring the glamour" to the kitchen but has also been "cooking my little Essex bum off" in preparation.
She added like every Essex girl she is a lover of a chippy at the end of a night out and always had a hankering for a battered sausage or saveloy.'

Cheryl Hole in the Masterchef kitchen

Celebrity MasterChef: Cheryl Hole on why LGBTQ+ representation is important

The drag star says being on Celebrity MasterChef is a way to have voices of the LGBTQ+ community heard.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66513419?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=8EA99BA6-3BF5-11EE-BCF0-209FED5F52B7&at_link_origin=BBCNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D

OP posts:
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17
Commonhousewitch · 18/08/2023 08:27

Drag queens used to be entertainment (similar to pantomime dames but ruder) - why on earth are they seen as representative of the Trans community or saying something about the individuals identity. The conflation of transvestite and transsexual is bad enough but adding drag queens into equation is ridiculous and then making it mainstream/family entertainment...

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/08/2023 08:33

RebelliousCow · 18/08/2023 08:22

Yes, in a theoretical world - but that is not how the actual world works. Certainly not when it comes to items of clothing that are designated 'women's clothing' ( skirts/dresses/high heels/bras/lingerie and so on). Far lesss so when it comes to ietms designated male clothing.

That males have far les room for manoeuvre/expression may be one of the reasons behind the male procilvity for cross dressing/transvestitism. Eddie Izzard used to say "these are not women's clothes, they are my clothes" - though he eventually shnaged his mind, didn't he?

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It’s always the bra that’s the giveaway

if a man is wearing a skirt or makeup or whatever it’s fine, often looks pretty cool in fact. He’s a man wearing clothes he likes, great

the minute he slips on a bra you know you’re in ‘ick’ territory. Now he’s ‘dessing as a woman’. Men don’t have breasts, they don’t need bras.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2023 08:48

It’s always the bra that’s the giveaway

if a man is wearing a skirt or makeup or whatever it’s fine, often looks pretty cool in fact. He’s a man wearing clothes he likes, great

the minute he slips on a bra you know you’re in ‘ick’ territory. Now he’s ‘dessing as a woman’. Men don’t have breasts, they don’t need bras.

Yes, exactly this.

PotteringPondering · 18/08/2023 08:54

CurlewKate · 16/08/2023 14:26

@hamstersarse "I'd quite like to read the 'history of drag' that the BBC put in their reply."
"Drag as a cultural phenomenon dates back to Tudor times. It has been established as a form of entertainment for many years and drag queens have featured on mainstream pre-watershed TV for a long time – right back to when Lily Savage presented Blankety Blank.

Diversity and inclusion is a core part of who we are and what we do, as an organisation. The BBC is committed to reflecting and representing the diversity of the UK across all of our output.

We can assure you it’s never our intention to upset or offend our viewers, however, we appreciate you may continue to feel Cheryl Hole is an inappropriate contributor to feature on the programme."

'Drag as a cultural phenomenon dates back to Tudor times'.

Quick reminder that men played female characters in Shakespeare because women weren't allowed on the stage at the time.

Using Elizabethan misogyny to defend today's misogyny isn't a good look, BBC.

Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 18/08/2023 09:01

Chersfrozenface · 18/08/2023 08:27

The BBC is doubling down on its News site today.

Colour me surprised.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66531424

Was it actually 'hate' and 'abuse'? Is that what they call women complaining about objectification and dehumanising slurs, now?

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Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 18/08/2023 09:03

It's not great, tbh, when an orthodoxy is maintained by silencing the disadvantaged, by labelling their complaints as 'hate'. Not a healthy society.

Why aren't women listened to? Why didn't the BBC have a woman on to discuss Cheryl 'Hole' and his hilarious punny name?

Why is it just Cheryl who gets to speak?

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Slothtoes · 18/08/2023 09:21

This person in costume doesn’t represent any community apart from drag performers. Just a lazy BBC executive’s idea of visible ‘queerness’ being represented by drag when actually due to Drag race etc becoming popular, anyone of either sex and any sexual orientation now can and does do drag.

So this man is just one of a genre who is individually choosing to be doing misogyny drag .. and why is that something to put on a family show?

Samantha Fox, actual out lesbian who lives in Essex and comes from a family of East End market traders can give L representation and that’s great

Why can this gay man not represent gay men from Essex without a sexist character representation?

Chersfrozenface · 18/08/2023 09:26

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 18/08/2023 09:01

Was it actually 'hate' and 'abuse'? Is that what they call women complaining about objectification and dehumanising slurs, now?

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Quite.

As I and many others have pointed out repeatedly, in some people's dictionaries 'hate' and 'abuse' can mean 'people disagreeing with me'.

loislovesstewie · 18/08/2023 09:31

Could I also remind the BBC that for over 20 years they screened/ made the abomination that was the Black and White Minstrel Show? Many people over many years protested to the BBC that the show was racist and wholly unacceptable, as I recall the apologists for the programme also defended it on the basis of tradition. Strange that now the oh, so politically correct , BBC will show drag but would NEVER reshow the aformentioned minstrel show.

Clymene · 18/08/2023 09:39

Neither Dame Edna nor Lily Savage used names that mocked women nor did they call themselves she. Neither Paul O'Grady nor Barry Humphries pretended they were women at any time.

And they were funny. Cheryl Hole isn't fit to comb their wigs.

borntobequiet · 18/08/2023 09:49

Clymene · 18/08/2023 09:39

Neither Dame Edna nor Lily Savage used names that mocked women nor did they call themselves she. Neither Paul O'Grady nor Barry Humphries pretended they were women at any time.

And they were funny. Cheryl Hole isn't fit to comb their wigs.

I’ve complained to the BBC saying more or less that.

CurlewKate · 18/08/2023 09:56

@borntobequiet "I’ve complained to the BBC saying more or less that."

So did I. It's a "cheeky play on words easily explained in a family context."

Nobody on here has yet been able to offer me a form of words to do this, whether it refers to vagina or anus.

Chersfrozenface · 18/08/2023 10:01

One of the definitions of 'hole' in the Oxford English Dictionary is "The orifice of any organ or part of the body. spec. (slang) The mouth, the anus, or the female external genital organs".

I'm really quite old and have lived a varied life with a very varied acquaintance, and I know full well that men have been using 'hole' to refer to the vulva and vagina for decades,

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2023 10:03

I'm really quite old and have lived a varied life with a very varied acquaintance, and I know full well that men have been using 'hole' to refer to the vulva and vagina for decades,

This. I've heard men call women "holes" as a descriptive label before.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/08/2023 10:17

"a way to ... show we're nothing to be feared".

As Dr Phil used to say - how's that choice of name working out for you, Cheryl?

hoochycrone · 18/08/2023 10:28

Thanks @ArabeIIaKarenScott
Just complained.

MarkWithaC · 18/08/2023 10:56

Snowypeaks · 17/08/2023 19:38

Also no such thing as women's or men's clothes.

I've seen this opinion a lot, but I disagree. Women's clothes are designed for women's bodies - our shape and skeletal proportions and overall greater degree of plumpness. Women's trousers are cut differently to men's. Roomier through the hips and thighs and no need for the extra material at the front. Shorter legs.
Men's clothes can be "skirts" or "dresses" - but they are versions designed for men's shape and proportions and different areas of adiposity. Togas, tunics, kilts. Sarongs, maybe. All "dresses" and "skirts" for men. There are plenty of "comfortable" or non-standard male garb options. If they choose women's clothes, it's for a reason. And it's not the fit.

Obviously there is some overlap in shape, proportions, etc and a tall, lean swimmer type of woman would look great in men's trousers, for example. But basically a dressmaker's model for a man is different to one for a woman.

I don't think we're talking here about things like the cut of clothes. 'women's clothes' and 'men's clothes' here is being used to mean clothes thought culturally acceptable/normal for women or men to wear.

loislovesstewie · 18/08/2023 12:15

I've been asked to complete a survey by the BBC which was linked to my complaint and my satisfaction in respect of their answer.🤔

Chersfrozenface · 18/08/2023 12:17

The item I linked to earlier about Cheryl H on the BBC News main page is no longer there, nor on the Culture page where telly stuff normally appears.

What is on the main news page is this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-66542300

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/08/2023 13:18

loislovesstewie · 18/08/2023 12:15

I've been asked to complete a survey by the BBC which was linked to my complaint and my satisfaction in respect of their answer.🤔

Ha! Me too

I left it to lunchtime so I can give it the attention it deserves

Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 18/08/2023 13:21

I never got a survey <huffs>

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/08/2023 13:33

There was genuinely a trigger warning before some of the survey questions 😂

loislovesstewie · 18/08/2023 16:02

Oh, I loved the trigger warning!!!