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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cheryl Hole on LGBTQ representation

291 replies

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 16/08/2023 09:47

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66513419

'Cheryl has promised to "bring the glamour" to the kitchen but has also been "cooking my little Essex bum off" in preparation.
She added like every Essex girl she is a lover of a chippy at the end of a night out and always had a hankering for a battered sausage or saveloy.'

Cheryl Hole in the Masterchef kitchen

Celebrity MasterChef: Cheryl Hole on why LGBTQ+ representation is important

The drag star says being on Celebrity MasterChef is a way to have voices of the LGBTQ+ community heard.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66513419?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=8EA99BA6-3BF5-11EE-BCF0-209FED5F52B7&at_link_origin=BBCNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D

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ArabeIIaKarenScott · 18/08/2023 16:34

I never got a trigger warning either! <doublehuff>

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loislovesstewie · 18/08/2023 16:45

They clearly thought that,due to my age,I'm a little old lady and might be shocked by giving details of my sex /gender and any disabilities!

topnoddy · 18/08/2023 17:23

The bit i don't get is "celebrity"
More like desperate non entity wants free publicity .
If i disagree with what you do I "hate you" then do I ?

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 18/08/2023 19:56

'It is not a sign of affection when men decide that they are going to parody their own fantasy of ‘working class slags’ – which is the blueprint used for the majority of drag characters. They are having a laugh at our expense, and it is far from harmless fun. '

That's a good point. Why do drag queens tend to parody 'working class slags'? Men taking the piss out of disempowered, sexually exploited women? It couldn't be more 'punching down' if it tried, really.

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FroodwithaKaren · 18/08/2023 21:46

Good article. I'm glad it's not just me that remembers the drag acts in the gay pubs back in the dark ages. They were fun, they were men being men performing with no seriousness, and it was not extreme crude sexual sneering at women and enacting the worst stereotypes to mock the most disempowered of them as Arabella says. That was not what this is.

I haven't watched any of this series, I don't want my weekly beating over the head with a copy of the Guardian telling me that good women embrace derision and misogyny as a necessary part of being LGBT.

Like fuck it is. We've managed to be LGBT all these centuries without this ugliness, it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Being homosexual does not necessitate treating women like shit. If some people are saying that being trans does, then lets be honest about it and start asking some bloody serious questions, because for a start, I seriously doubt all trans people agree.

MassiveWordSalad · 18/08/2023 22:23

I've wondered at times about drag and misogyny. I haven't read about this in any detail, and I'm sure other posters here could set me straight and point me to some evidence (or lack thereof) about this.

Anyway. Of course, patriarchy has been telling us for a long time that women are the lesser, second sex and anything associated with being a woman has been used as a stick to beat boys and men at times. 'Throw like a girl'; 'pansy'; 'sissy'; 'bitch' - just a few examples. Gay men especially have these things thrown at them, because to have sex with a man is to be like a woman, in the eyes of homophobes. You're not masculine, you're not a real man, you're practically a woman.

Drag then is a way to subvert this, to say 'yes, you think I'm a woman, I'll show you a bloody woman then' and a kind of reclaiming, to belittle the idea of masculinity. That's all well and good to make the gays of the past feel better about the awful ways they were treated and to mock their oppressors, but it feeds misogyny. At its heart it is a group of oppressed men laughing at themselves portraying cliched and hyperbolic representations of another group of people who are shat on by 'real' men. But then there is no self-awareness when women say 'hang on a minute' - misogyny is so ingrained that they don't even see that there may be a problem. It just doesn't compute. Meanwhile, women continue to be treated like, well, women, toxic masculinity grows ever more toxic and 'gay' and 'sissy' and even 'girl' are still playground slurs.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/08/2023 00:17

@MassiveWordSalad

You are exactly right. Looked at from one angle it's empowering and subvertive for the gay men, but from the other angle it's just another art made by men and using women as symbols to represent what's important to men.

And at the end of the day, makeup, women's names and dresses notwithstanding, and no matter how genuinely the homage to women may be felt, it's not actually women on stage or on TV, performing, being seen, building a brand and getting paid, is it? All the actual opportunities and money is as usual going to men.

Kind of ironic that this oh-so-progessive cultural moment of drag queens popping up everywhere is basically promoting an art form that's a men-only profession, isn't it? (Yes I know drag kings and female drag queens exist. But they aren't exactly equally represented!)

Slothtoes · 20/08/2023 08:20

I agree with all your posts and thanks you’ve explained to me why I feel uncomfortable with misogynistic drag being performed outside venues predominately used by and aimed at gay men. Because that’s what this is- misogynistic drag. And other forms of drag are definitely available these days but misogynistic drag is the original, essential, originating form of the art form. I think it helps to frame it in those terms to distinguish the other drag that exists.

Celeb Masterchef is so wildly out of the original context in which misogynistic drag was originally performed - back then, in stigmatised gay venues in order to say something about gay men’s masculinity which was back then routinely derided and attacked by mainstream culture. Putting all that into a celebrity cooking show is so stripping it of the original context that it’s completely wrong to have misogynistic drag on a family cooking show. Stripped of meaning it’s now just theBBC elevating and endorsing a man doing woman mockery and woman hating. Now why would that appeal to anyone in BBC casting?

It’s not even an example of the BBC genuinely elevating gay men, so it’s a homophobic casting pick too. They could have had any number of actual celebrity gay men on their show representing their own individual celebrity achievements and reflecting the gay male community. That would have been great without having anyone punching down, wearing the misogynistic costume and gross innuendo name and misogynistic ‘character’ shtick going on. So that awful choice of ‘celebrity’ pick is all on the BBC execs.

And thank you, you have helped me think through and clarify to myself for me that as a form of protest, misogynistic drag doesn’t translate into any other context than the gay club. As a bisexual woman, back when I used to go to apparently ‘mixed’ (but actually gay men’s) venues in the past, I was just as embarrassed and offended by the gay men on stage in drag laughing at women for being ‘fish’ ie apparently having smelly fannies and taking the piss out of breasts and make up and female ‘sluttiness’ and ‘stupidity’ and ‘small-mindedness’ then, as I am now.

I soon realised that the ‘mixed’ venues in the gay scene were still aimed at gay men, just content to have a few women in so the gay men customers could bring in a few female friends, have a few female staff and boost the venue’s clientele and takings. It wasn’t that women were equally welcome.

That’s a whole other discussion about how the ‘pink pound’ works, how and why women only venues struggle financially, etc etc. I hated misogynistic drag then but I had to put that in a different basket to think about later because I knew I wasn’t exactly the original intended audience for it and the specific history of homophobic oppression and violence behind it wasn’t my history as a woman.

At that moment I was just the part of the audience paying to be taken the piss out of. I felt it so unfair that there was no equally sized and resourced gay venue scene for women as there was for men. That issue has never been solved. But all of these important issues have nothing to do with BBC cooking programmes.

Me, and all of us, everyone everywhere, should be 100% the audience for a bloody cooking show on the BBC which my licence fee pays for. Women are not second class licence fee payers. We are not hangers on to a stigmatised male protest and male party, paying to be insulted because we aren’t welcome to go with our girlfriends anywhere else. Women licence fee payers should not be being treated like this by the BBC. It’s really offensive.

I want the BBC to survive because it has a public service remit unlike all the other broadcasters and it can and does do some great things. I’m happy to pay the licence fee for that. Equally the BBC sometimes does some stupid things- which this casting choice is one of.

And that is entirely down to employing some not very clever staff and specifically execs in leadership to sign off on this kind of casting decision. All of the women on this board could give them several useful lessons on critical thinking. As part of its public service remit, the BBC should also be listening and open to putting up its hands when it gets things wrong, and reflecting on why.

The BBC are not doing that here, also not paying enough to the letter answerers in their complaint department to allow them to challenge the utter crap that is clearly being fed to them from higher up, to include in their replies to us. For example about the ‘family friendly’ nature of the Cheryl Hole casting decision.

The BBC is completely lying to claim it’s ‘easily explained in a family context’ what even just Cheryl Hole’s name comes from. Obviously the name comes from anal or vaginal sex, which again each has a whole other story and context and stigma in the context of an oppressed male gay community, that is completely lost on a bloody cooking show- so that’s a totally inappropriate claim for starters. It’s also hard to explain how it’s justified to mock a working class celebrity woman’s name without consent and take the piss out of her career.

The BBC needs to tell us how to easily explain all of the above in a family context please, so we can give it a go with our kids. Should be easy for them, right?

B3ttyM · 20/08/2023 09:50

Seems like many people on here agree on this issue. Given that's the case, I'd encourage anyone who's unhappy to complain to the BBC. I've done so twice, first about the promotion of misogynistic attitudes and language by promoting Cheryl Hole and secondly about the patronising/gaslighting response telling me it was all about inclusivity.
Awaiting response to my second complaint and then going to make a freedom of information request about the number of complaints the Beeb have had on this issue. I suspect it's rather a lot.

RebelliousCow · 20/08/2023 10:23

I complained about the very active promotion of Ru Paul's Drag Race on prime time TV - a few years ago; and also about the misogynistic portrayals and names of some of the drag queens - including. 'Baga Chipz' and 'Cheryl Hole' - what i got bacK was similar to the above responses. How drag is all about liberating a persecuted minority and that its roots go back hundreds of years.

In spite of several back and forths- they were unrelenting. They must have had hundreds of complaints. At some point they'll need to take them seriously - although the BBC is well and truly captured on the 'social justice' front.

RebelliousCow · 20/08/2023 10:26

A lot of gay men in very prominent positions now, and in my experience those most in awe of drag are also the most anti-woman TRAS too. All of this bollocks about drag being celebratory of women........

B3ttyM · 20/08/2023 10:37

RebelliousCow · 20/08/2023 10:23

I complained about the very active promotion of Ru Paul's Drag Race on prime time TV - a few years ago; and also about the misogynistic portrayals and names of some of the drag queens - including. 'Baga Chipz' and 'Cheryl Hole' - what i got bacK was similar to the above responses. How drag is all about liberating a persecuted minority and that its roots go back hundreds of years.

In spite of several back and forths- they were unrelenting. They must have had hundreds of complaints. At some point they'll need to take them seriously - although the BBC is well and truly captured on the 'social justice' front.

Annoyed but sadly not surprised to hear this. It's corporate gaslighting and I've pointed that out in my second complaint. I look forward to making my freedom of information request.

BaronMunchausen · 20/08/2023 16:04

The BBC have explicitly framed concerns about misogyny as "abuse": "people have complained her drag name and act was misogynistic and spoke of other abuse".

The BBC (or whatever fanatic they're delegating anything LGBTQ+ to) views your complaints as abusive.

Cheryl Hole in the MasterChef kitchen

Cheryl Hole: Drag star calls out abuse for Celebrity MasterChef appearance

Cheryl Hole speaks of social media abuse, saying people "don't understand the art form of drag".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66531424

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 17:36

'The BBC have explicitly framed concerns about misogyny as "abuse"'

I see. Women complaining about being upset is 'abuse' and hate speech.

Drag queens complaining about being upset gets articles and sympathy.

What is the one major difference between these two groups? One of which is not allowed to feel offended when referred to as 'holes'. One of which is protected, listened to, and lauded.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/08/2023 17:44

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 17:36

'The BBC have explicitly framed concerns about misogyny as "abuse"'

I see. Women complaining about being upset is 'abuse' and hate speech.

Drag queens complaining about being upset gets articles and sympathy.

What is the one major difference between these two groups? One of which is not allowed to feel offended when referred to as 'holes'. One of which is protected, listened to, and lauded.

It's all part of how women are controlled and silenced isn't it? If we object to DQ's misogynistic language & crude stereotypes of women we're abusive. Don't think children should be set on a path to sterilisation & life long drugs and surgery - haters. Disagree with Peter Tatchell's demands that the age of consent for children should be lowered - bigots.

RealityFan · 20/08/2023 17:44

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 17:36

'The BBC have explicitly framed concerns about misogyny as "abuse"'

I see. Women complaining about being upset is 'abuse' and hate speech.

Drag queens complaining about being upset gets articles and sympathy.

What is the one major difference between these two groups? One of which is not allowed to feel offended when referred to as 'holes'. One of which is protected, listened to, and lauded.

Don't you get it yet? You've seen the mansplainers and manspreaders...taking up space on the Tube, making complicated stuff so much more understandable to the little laydees.

Now we have transplaining and transpreading...except now you women have to budge up, squash your freedoms, rights.

And unlike telling a guy on the Tube what his problem is, with transplaining you have to realise that any dissent or objection is phobic, prejudice, and instils total fear, and the impulse for the put upon trans to kill themselves.

So women and girls of the Western world, budge up, and shut up. They want your rights, space...and silence.

I think we can see what this all means in Iran and Afghanistan, previously the ISIS state.

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 19:14

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12418865/BBC-slammed-completely-inappropriate-decision-include-highly-sexualised-drag-queen-Cheryl-Hole-29-Celebrity-Masterchef.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/17/cheryl-hole-bbc-row-celebrity-masterchef-rupauls-drag-race/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/23526510/drag-race-cheryl-hole-hits-back-celeb-masterchef-trolls/

'DRAG Race favourite Cheryl Hole has clapped back at vile trolls calling out her stint on Celebrity MasterChef.
The British BBC star, 29, took to her social media pages to lash out at the keyboard bullies who took aim at everything from her name to her appearance.
One cruelly raged: "This is outrageous what were the BBC thinking?"

Cruelly raged?

😶

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/cheryl-hole-drag-masterchef-celebrity-b2395287.html

Trans ow over MasterChef's Cheryl Hole's previous use of term 'terf'

Cheryl Hole, 29, (pictured) featured in the debut series of RuPaul's Drag Race UK in 2019 and took part in this week's episode of the cooking show where she was eliminated.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12418865/BBC-slammed-completely-inappropriate-decision-include-highly-sexualised-drag-queen-Cheryl-Hole-29-Celebrity-Masterchef.html

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LoobiJee · 20/08/2023 19:34

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/08/2023 17:44

It's all part of how women are controlled and silenced isn't it? If we object to DQ's misogynistic language & crude stereotypes of women we're abusive. Don't think children should be set on a path to sterilisation & life long drugs and surgery - haters. Disagree with Peter Tatchell's demands that the age of consent for children should be lowered - bigots.

“Disagree with Peter Tatchell's demands that the age of consent for children should be lowered - bigots

The words Peter Tatchell uses to insult and undermine those who disagree with his decades-long campaign to lower the age of consent to 14 is “puritans and sex haters”.

https://www.petertatchell.net/lgbt_rights/age_of_consent/an-age-of-consent-of-14/

Because of course, the only possible motivation mothers could have for wanting to protect their children from predators is their own lack of a satisfying sex life. I mean what else could it be?

Interesting to note the similarities between the arguments he deploys in support of his campaign to decriminalise sex with 14yo children and the arguments deployed by men arguing that pimping and brothel keeping shouldn’t be criminalised. ie That the legal framework prevents victims from seeking help.

Criminalisation is dangerous because it can inhibit young people from seeking safer sex advice and condoms. It makes some youngsters afraid to report sexually abusive relationships. They fear getting into trouble because they have broken the law. Reducing the age of consent to 14 would remedy these problems, at least for those aged 14 and older.

And on that last sentence….anyone care to place a bet on what the next phase of his personal crusade would be if he did succeed in lowering the age of consent to 14?

An age of consent of 14? | Peter Tatchell

Sexual human rights for the under-16s

https://www.petertatchell.net/lgbt_rights/age_of_consent/an-age-of-consent-of-14/

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 19:44

It's not even just protecting children from predators, though, is it?

Protecting them from STDs, pregnancy, and bad experiences is also important.

Thanks for sharing that, I wasn't aware Tatchell had consistently campaigned to lower the age of consent. I had thought it was just sort of accidentally, on occasion.

pleasure

1. enjoyment, happiness, or satisfaction, or something that gives this: 2…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pleasure

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KiteofUncertainty · 20/08/2023 19:57

What harm can result from kids not having sex with adults?
Absolutely none. It's a non-issue - unless you are the adult for whom the extreme youth of the child is the turn-on. Then it's vitally important to be able to have sex with kids before they get less attractive to you. Nauseating framing of the prohibition of paedophilia as a restriction on children's rights. It's all for the adults.

LoobiJee · 20/08/2023 20:09

With apologies for prolonging the diversion away from the misogynist who’s the subject of this thread onto another misogynist, it’s worth having a browse through Tatchell’s website.

Here, for example, are his pearls of wisdom on pornography.

Porn Can Be Good For You
^^
Sexually-explicit imagery can be empowering, liberating and fulfilling
^^
While pornography can be dehumanising and exploitative, it can also be educative, liberating, empowering, fulfilling and immensely socially beneficial. It all depends on how it is made, who makes it, what it depicts and why it is being used.
^^
The puritanical right-wing feminist claim that porn is always anti-women is simplistic, untrue, insensitive, uncaring and, dare l say it, sometimes misogynistic and homophobic. Using sexually-explicit imagery can be egalitarian, health-promoting, emotionally fulfilling and life-saving.

“uncaring”. What an absolute joke.

I’d be interested in seeing the evidence and analysis of these immense social benefits that he asserts exist.

Also has anyone told Julie Bindel that Tatchell thinks the only feminists who object to the commercial sexual exploitation of women, via pornography, are right wing feminists? (I’m guessing she’s well aware of his views.)

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 20:14

He is fond of the word 'puritan'.

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LoobiJee · 20/08/2023 20:14

Having read the rest of that article, I think it would be better to take the discussion to the Tatchell thread.

BaronMunchausen · 20/08/2023 22:17

TV Editor for the Metro, Adam Miller, has condemned “twisted bigots needlessly outraged” by Cheryl Hole's appearance on MasterChef. Miller's focus isn’t on people who did express hate, but on women who said the name “Cheryl Hole” was offensive to them.

His only example of this bigotry is a tweet explaining that 'Cheryl Hole knows exactly what he’s doing and exactly how offensive that is to women. Women have been referred to as “holes” by abusive misogynist men for centuries' and refers to that tweet as “spouting hate”. He then mansplains that this parody of supposedly promiscuous and unintelligent working class women was in fact named after a man hole. “Quite literally nothing to do with a vagina”.

In a further example of Mr Miller’s upside-down world, he says these women are ‘punching down on’ a harmless man. He goes on to link these ‘twisted bigots’ to the attack outside a Clapham gay club.

Why do people suddenly have a problem with a drag queen on Celebrity MasterChef?

Before she’d even turned on the oven, Cheryl was trending across social media with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of twisted bigots needlessly outraged.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/17/why-do-people-suddenly-have-a-problem-with-a-drag-queen-on-celebrity-masterchef-19350874