Page 11 | Cheryl Hole on LGBTQ representation

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 2023-08-16T08:47:41+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66513419?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=8EA99BA6-3BF5-11EE-BCF0-209FED5F52B7&at_link_origin=BBCNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66513419]] 'Cheryl has promised to "bring the glamour" to the kitchen but has also been "cooking my little Essex bum off" in preparation. She added like every Essex girl she is a lover of a chippy at the end of a night out and always had a hankering for a battered sausage or saveloy.'

Original poster

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 20/08/2023 23:30

JFC that is Olympic standard gaslighting.

OP posts:

PatatiPatatras · 21/08/2023 07:04

Well they can't say women didn't speak. It's just no one is listening.
The sound, in their head, of self righteousness is so loud it is drowning everything else out...

EdithStourton · 21/08/2023 07:21

'twisted bigots'?
There's some sort of reversal going on there.

BabyStopCryin · 21/08/2023 08:55

Maybe women should start dressing up as drag queens and see how that does down.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/08/2023 08:55

BaronMunchausen · 20/08/2023 22:17

TV Editor for the Metro, Adam Miller, has condemned “twisted bigots needlessly outraged” by Cheryl Hole's appearance on MasterChef. Miller's focus isn’t on people who did express hate, but on women who said the name “Cheryl Hole” was offensive to them.

His only example of this bigotry is a tweet explaining that 'Cheryl Hole knows exactly what he’s doing and exactly how offensive that is to women. Women have been referred to as “holes” by abusive misogynist men for centuries' and refers to that tweet as “spouting hate”. He then mansplains that this parody of supposedly promiscuous and unintelligent working class women was in fact named after a man hole. “Quite literally nothing to do with a vagina”.

In a further example of Mr Miller’s upside-down world, he says these women are ‘punching down on’ a harmless man. He goes on to link these ‘twisted bigots’ to the attack outside a Clapham gay club.

jesus christ

women saying 'err, I don't like this much' really does drive some men into an irrational fury doesn't it? I practically had to wipe his frothy spittle off the page so I could read his words

Once again, homophobia is being disguised as a defence of women.

once again? the hyperlink leads to a fairly generic article about homophobia

Drag is in itself a celebration of the women adored by the LGBTQ+ community

apart from the several lesbians on here who have said they don't like it much

Drag queens love women.

by calling them 'fish', and implying they're stupid and promiscuous

what a doofus. there is real homophobia, I believe it. Women saying 'we're more than just holes thanks', isn't it
'

I'm abrosexual - it took me 30 years to realise

One day I can feel like a lesbian, yet days or weeks later, I’d feel more aligned with bisexuality.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/11/im-abrosexual-it-took-me-30-years-to-realise-19298652/?ico=trending-module_tag_lgbtq_item-0

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2023 09:28

The Metro page also recommended this article:

metro.co.uk/2023/08/11/im-abrosexual-it-took-me-30-years-to-realise-19298652/

"When I tell people that I'm abrosexual, I'm often greeted by a blank expression"

Helleofabore · 21/08/2023 09:28

I am absolutely over male people telling women that drag is a ‘celebration’ of women. It most assuredly is not in general.

And if ‘hole’ referred to a male hole, then that person would have a male first name they adopted. It is ludicrous to argue it is not referring to women as holes. The person is dressed as a woman with a woman’s name. There is no ‘nuance’ here. That is gaslighting.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 21/08/2023 09:41

Even if it did refer to a 'male hole' (ugh!), that still wouldn't fit the claim that it's 'family friendly'.

Gaslighting is bad enough, but they could at least make it coherent gaslighting. This gishgalloping mess is just adding insult to injury more insult.

miri1985 · 21/08/2023 09:42

BabyStopCryin · 21/08/2023 08:55

Maybe women should start dressing up as drag queens and see how that does down.

This 100%. Can you imagine how much a woman would be pilloried if they wore a similar amount of obvious makeup to the photo above. I'm sure there would be multiple articles decrying any actual woman who had so obviously tried to contour their nose away to nothing

loislovesstewie · 21/08/2023 09:45

Oh how I agree!!! I am so utterly,utterly fed up with men gaslighting women about this. Can they not see that it really is men sticking together and telling women to shut up!!??

Original poster

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 21/08/2023 10:13

miri1985 · 21/08/2023 09:42

This 100%. Can you imagine how much a woman would be pilloried if they wore a similar amount of obvious makeup to the photo above. I'm sure there would be multiple articles decrying any actual woman who had so obviously tried to contour their nose away to nothing

Show quote history

Oh, it happens.

Here, have an extra large serving of word salad with a side of genderwang.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jul/10/workin-it-how-female-drag-queens-are-causing-a-scene

Workin’ it! How female drag queens are causing a scene

Women dressing up as men dressing up as women are embracing camp glamour to playfully subvert gender and femininity. Miss Malice, Holestar and Victoria Sin explain why they are revamping queer culture

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jul/10/workin-it-how-female-drag-queens-are-causing-a-scene

OP posts:

Original poster

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 21/08/2023 10:17

Seems 'Holestar', pictured right in the Guardian article has recently retired from drag, citing misogyny:

'Penultimate gig before I retire from the scene. I'm not out forever, just need to step away and reassess what I want to do.
Unfortunately in my 20 years of titting about, the gay scene hasn't changed much for women in the lower rungs of showbiz. Still riddled with misogyny and I'm done through jumping through hoops. I'm a bitch, not a dog.
I love performing. I love drag.
I'll be back x'

Quoted from her FB page.

OP posts:

Brewdug · 21/08/2023 10:26

BaronMunchausen · 20/08/2023 22:17

TV Editor for the Metro, Adam Miller, has condemned “twisted bigots needlessly outraged” by Cheryl Hole's appearance on MasterChef. Miller's focus isn’t on people who did express hate, but on women who said the name “Cheryl Hole” was offensive to them.

His only example of this bigotry is a tweet explaining that 'Cheryl Hole knows exactly what he’s doing and exactly how offensive that is to women. Women have been referred to as “holes” by abusive misogynist men for centuries' and refers to that tweet as “spouting hate”. He then mansplains that this parody of supposedly promiscuous and unintelligent working class women was in fact named after a man hole. “Quite literally nothing to do with a vagina”.

In a further example of Mr Miller’s upside-down world, he says these women are ‘punching down on’ a harmless man. He goes on to link these ‘twisted bigots’ to the attack outside a Clapham gay club.

Very similar kind thinking to how Robin Ince has behaved all Fringe. Framing perfectly reasonable questions from women disagreeing with him as 'hate'. He's really gone for broke on it all the last few weeks. It's so disappointing.

Beachcomber · 21/08/2023 12:10

There was a poster upthread who said they didn't have an issue with drag queens reading to children as long as the book and behaviour of the drag queen was appropriate. The poster (apologies I don't remember their name) then seemed to be saying that they didn't have an issue with drag queens reading just as they wouldn't with firefighters, doctors, lawyers, etc.

I understand that being a drag queen can be a job / way of earning money but I object to it being considered equivalent to doctoring, lawyering, etc when it comes to contact with children.

Being a doctor or a lawyer does not involve a person from a dominate group in society parodying the class of people subjugated by said dominant group.

What is "drag queen storytime" for our girl children exactly?
It's a man dressed as a (usually sexualised) parody of the those girls' future selves. It's a man having a good old time with the markers that are used in male dominated society to communicate that girls and women are the inferior sex class.

By markers I mean the stuff used in society to signify that girls and women are not boys and men, not as important as boys and men, not as valuable as boys and men and are vastly inferior and less human than boys and men (make up, high heels, sexualised clothing, focus on isolated body parts, etc).

Drag queen storytime (with it's innocuous innocent twee name) is antifemale propaganda. In our schools, libraries, etc. And I guarantee you that it does not impact boys in the same way it impacts girls. It's sexist so how can it?

This misogynisticly named attention seeker on Master Chef is exactly the same. It's more eroding of boundaries and it's sexist antifemale propaganda. On prime time BBC.

And if we women complain about it we are regressive bigots (who can't take a joke). And that Cheryl Cole is obviously a stupid bitch if she doesn't grimly smile at the joke / celebration (always thought she was a talentless tramp anyway and now she's probably turned into a right old Karen now she's getting old er and saggier. Cow.) <sarcasm>

There is nothing progressive about this bullshit. Unless you think sexism is progressive.

When will the BBC have a white man parodying a black man sporting hammed up shackles / chains as part of their hilarious costume complete with a name that includes a racist slur as a celebration of African culture on Master Chef?

Fucking never that's when. But girls and women are fair game for this utterly outrageous treatment.

Original poster

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 21/08/2023 12:22

TBH I could earlier see the point when people suggested that objecting to the name 'Hole' was perhaps an overreaction. It seemed a subtle point to make and perhaps there are bigger subjects to discuss.

But the response is making me wonder.

It's not 'bullying' to make a complaint. It's not 'twisted bigotry' to object to sexist language. If it's 'just mild sexism', then why the need to cast women raising the issue as 'vile twisted bigots'?

OP posts:

Beachcomber · 21/08/2023 12:44

And also I think it's outrageous that Samantha Fox - a woman who was groomed by the entire nation and used to groom an entire generation of girls and young women should have to share airtime with a bloke who parodies women's bodies / body parts including their breasts.

The grim irony of that takes both grimness and irony to a level that the BBC should be slaughtered for.

popebishop · 21/08/2023 13:53

Interesting article, thanks arabella.
Quote from Victoria Sin echoes what I have posted on here over the years:

"What’s important to make clear is that, for me, drag is not performing a woman, drag is performing femininity,” says Sin. A person can be a woman and not be at all feminine, they say.

I appreciate anyone making the effort to disentangle the two. (I am unclear if this has anything to do with them identifying as non binary)

Beachcomber · 21/08/2023 16:23

popebishop · 21/08/2023 13:53

Interesting article, thanks arabella.
Quote from Victoria Sin echoes what I have posted on here over the years:

"What’s important to make clear is that, for me, drag is not performing a woman, drag is performing femininity,” says Sin. A person can be a woman and not be at all feminine, they say.

I appreciate anyone making the effort to disentangle the two. (I am unclear if this has anything to do with them identifying as non binary)

But that is what makes it doubly offensive to my mind. Although I find it less offensive when done by a woman. Not better, mind, just less offensive.

I'm going to try to explain.

Femininity is a social construction.

And it is a social construction which is fundamental to the subjugation of girls and women. Femininity is a collection of imposed customs and behaviours which designate females as the inferior sex class in society.

Femininity is not femaleness or girlhood or womanhood but it is what male dominated society demands from us in order to both inferiorise us and for us to demonstrate our submissive capitulation to that inferiorisation.

In other words, it's deeply sexist and very political.

Therefore a man (or a woman) "performing" (or parodying or imitating or "celebrating") femininity as some form of light entertainment is deeply political and rooted in profound sexism. Whether the performer intends it to be or not.

And it's fundamentaly offensive when done by men (because it mocks female oppression) and deeply sad when done by women (because it mocks our own oppression).

I suppose in theory it would be possible for a very switched on woman to parody drag as a parody of sexism and somehow make a feminist point but I think it would be more effecient and clear to just call out drag for the misogyny it is in the misogynistic society it occurs in...

borntobequiet · 26/08/2023 10:56

I complained to the BBC and got the usual acknowledgment. Today have further email

This is an update to apologise to you that although we normally aim to reply to most complaints within 2 weeks, we are currently dealing with a higher than normal volume of cases. This means it will take a little longer to reply to you at present. We hope you understand that this is why we are unable to respond within our normal service times.

Of course it may simply mean that people are on holiday so they’ve fallen behind…

Catsanfan · 26/08/2023 11:02

Let's hope that means loads of people have complained

BabyStopCryin · 26/08/2023 11:04

I got that message two Christmases ago. They never did write back.

MarkWithaC · 01/09/2023 11:05

Finally got a reply.
'Celebrity MasterChef has a tradition of inviting a variety of celebrities onto the show. Diversity and inclusion is a core part of the BBC and we’re committed to reflecting and representing the diversity of the UK across all of our output.

The culture of drag has featured prominently on mainstream TV over the years and drag artists have featured before on Celebrity MasterChef. The full range of contestants has helped reflect greater representation and Cheryl’s inclusion wasn’t new. We have a great array of contestants take part in Series 18 and we fully support Cheryl with her participation in the programme.'

So, waffle.

I've responded:

'Your reply fails to address my actual point: Cheryl Hole's name. I hoped not to have to spell it out but it seems I do: the word 'hole' is commonly used in a derogatory way to reduce women to their sexual anatomy (vagina) and perceived role (for men to penetrate for sexual gratification). This person being called Cheryl as opposed to (say) Charles Hole, being named in reference to a famous person who is a woman, and being a man who dresses and presents as a woman, makes very clear that it is definitely women's 'holes' that are being referred to. Please can you explain a) how in the BBC's estimation it is acceptable for this overt misogyny to be broadcast, b) how an adult watching the show with a child might explain the name and c) why the BBC feels it is acceptable to put either adults or children in the position of potentially having to.'

Anyone fancy running a book on how likely I am to get a response?

Original poster

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 01/09/2023 11:50

Good response, Mark. I bet £10 they won't respond.

OP posts:

BabyStopCryin · 01/09/2023 12:02

A squilionty pounds for a holding email or complete miss if the point reply (brucie bonus points for ‘diversity and inclusion’ mentioned).

Snowypeaks · 01/09/2023 12:20

MarkWithaC · 01/09/2023 11:05

Finally got a reply.
'Celebrity MasterChef has a tradition of inviting a variety of celebrities onto the show. Diversity and inclusion is a core part of the BBC and we’re committed to reflecting and representing the diversity of the UK across all of our output.

The culture of drag has featured prominently on mainstream TV over the years and drag artists have featured before on Celebrity MasterChef. The full range of contestants has helped reflect greater representation and Cheryl’s inclusion wasn’t new. We have a great array of contestants take part in Series 18 and we fully support Cheryl with her participation in the programme.'

So, waffle.

I've responded:

'Your reply fails to address my actual point: Cheryl Hole's name. I hoped not to have to spell it out but it seems I do: the word 'hole' is commonly used in a derogatory way to reduce women to their sexual anatomy (vagina) and perceived role (for men to penetrate for sexual gratification). This person being called Cheryl as opposed to (say) Charles Hole, being named in reference to a famous person who is a woman, and being a man who dresses and presents as a woman, makes very clear that it is definitely women's 'holes' that are being referred to. Please can you explain a) how in the BBC's estimation it is acceptable for this overt misogyny to be broadcast, b) how an adult watching the show with a child might explain the name and c) why the BBC feels it is acceptable to put either adults or children in the position of potentially having to.'

Anyone fancy running a book on how likely I am to get a response?

Great follow-up.