Done a transcript:
TalkTV: Piers Morgan Uncensored
16/08/23
Rosanna Lockwood standing in for Piers Morgan
RL - Rosanna Lockwood
GL - Graham Linehan
PT - Peter Tatchell
GB: Grace Blakely
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RL: Welcome back to Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockwood, sitting in for Piers, he's still on holiday, getting a well earned break.
Now, Father Ted co-creator Graham Linehan is considering legal action now against a venue in Edinburgh unless it apologises and U-turns over cancelling a comedy show he was set to appear in. The Leith Arches pulled the plug on the Comedy Unleashed event after it received complaints that Mr Linehan was on the bill. The Leith Arches this was, their decision had not been influenced by online activists and that the comedian's views just didn't align with their overall values. The Dublin borm writer has been an outspoken critic of transgender self-identification. Leith Arches, this venue in Edinburgh, is a vocal supporter of the LGBTQ+ community. So where is the line being drawn here on freedom of speech? When does it become hate speech, or is just comedy, comedy where free rein is the name of the game?
Well, Graham Linehan joins me now live from Edinburgh to talk a little bit more about this, Graham thanks for making the time. Here in the studio I'm joined by human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell and socialist and author Grace Blakely. We'll get to their views shortly but first let's dive into this with Graham.
I've got to ask you Graham, did you expect this?
GL: Well yeah, I mean, I didn't have enough time to expect it. I didn't realise my photograph was going to be put on the poster or the announcement and then it was, and then in two hours the event had been cancelled, you know. So I didn't really have time to expect anything.
RL: I'm going to ask you quite frankly, is it a strategy do you think, not necessarily by you, but by the comedy group, to get more attention for this comedy show? Because if it is it's been very successful, you've announced that there's going to be another venue for this, one more fitting, you've directed people to the ticket sales, you've had a lot of publicity over the last 24 hours talking about this - was this all strategised?
GL: Well, we'd already sold out so, you know, why would we try to sell more tickets when we'd sold out? The venue - I don't think we've moved into a bigger venue, maybe slightly bigger but you know, we just took what we could get. I'm not sure whether you've thought that question through completely, it doesn't really make sense. But er ...
RL: Well I'm thinking it through like this, Graham - it's a very LGBTQ friendly venue, it's very publicly that way, your name was kind of kept back until the last minute, it was gonna be offensive to that community, to that venue, that must have been ...
GL: Why? What ...
RL: ... that must have been known by the group that put this together.
GL: What about my views would be offensive? Can you give me an example?
RL: I am hesitant to platform some of the language you have used but I've seen some of the tweets you've written in the past about people ...
GL: You're hesitant ...
RL: Well ...
GL: You're hesitant to platform some of the language I have used?
RL: Yeah, because I don't like it, I find it quite distasteful. You've compared ...
GL: Can you give me an example? Can you give me an example?
RL: You've compared people in the trans community to, quote, nonces, you often liken people within the trans community to paedophiles. That's ...
GL: No, what I said was there are central figures within the trans community - Aimee Challenor is one example, who is now married to a paedophile, whose father is serving 24 years in prison for torturing and sexually abusing a little girl. Aimee Challenor was at the heart of Stonewall when Stonewall was introducing self-ID in institutions across the country. So he's just one example. The inventor of the trans flag has written so called erotic stories about young girls ...
RL: Graham ...
GL: He said that the ... yeah?
RL: Graham. I mean, do you understand the difference here between ... because what - you know this has turned into an argument about whether comedians can be risque and controversial and dark in their humour, which of course they can be, people are brilliant at it. I think you're a comic genius, your work with, you know, Father Ted, the It Crowd [sic], Black Books - exceptional, some of my favourite comedy. Of course I understand dark and controversial views make comedy but I just - is there a difference though, between airing outright offensive political views on Twitter and the artform of bringing dark opinion into comedy?
GL: Yeah but none of my comedy is about this issue, it's just observational comedy.
RL: But do you not understand why your twitter output and why your commentary over the last few years has led you down this path to being constantly cancelled?
GL: Yeah, because you are protecting paedophiles. The media is protecting paedophiles like Aimee Challenor who was at the heart of Stonewall when Stonewall was introducing self-ID around the country. Once again, Aimee Challenor's father abused and tortured a little girl in the attic of his home.
RL: Graham ...
GL: Aimee Challenor's boyfriend is an admitted paedophile ...
RL: Graham, these people ...
GL: ... who writes short stories about abusing children.
RL: These people ...
GL: Now listen.
RL: Yeah, I'm listening.
GL: Every time we bring up these central figures, we are accused of calling every figure who is trans a paedophile. We're not. We're talking about those people, who the media and trans rights activists never call out. Never call out.
RL: There are plenty of people in the media, Graham, who are calling out extremist factions within the trans community. The people you've just mentioned by the way are named, they're not here ...
GL: Name one. Name one.
RL: ... they are not here to defend themselves.
GL: Name one. Name one person.
RL: There are plenty of voices. Graham ... we're not ...
GL: Name one person who is calling out the trans rights activists who put pornographic images under JK Rowling's tweets.
RL: Graham ... Let's bring in ... let's bring in ...
GL: Name one trans rights activist who condemned that act.
RL: Well, look, can I just ask you this actually before you go, do you regret having taken this path because you seem to have taken a more and more extreme path over the last few years?
GL: How is it extreme?
RL: Your - the views you've just expressed, most people would call those extreme. When you started ...
GL: You think it's extreme to be anti a paedophile who was at the heart of decision making within the LGBT community?
RL: Those are allegations. Once again, this is a news programme, these people are not here to defend themselves.
GL: These are not allegations! These have been reported, I did not ... if I ... when have I ... I'm being sued by a trans rights activist named David Paisley. The last trans rights activist who sued me was Stephanie Hayden. Stephanie Hayden is a criminal.
RL: Graham ... Graham ...
GL: David Paisley ...
RL: In which case ...
GL: ... is a man who destroyed a gay magazine called Boyz magazine, destroyed the livelihood of its editor, David Bridle, and all of this is readily available online ...
RL: In which case, if you are in ...
GL: You've come into this interview without understanding the subject
RL: If you're in active legal proceedings Graham, I'm going to cut ...
GL: You've come in just deciding ... deciding ...
RL: ... cut away for your own good, I'm going to cut away from your own good, just so that we don't get you into any further, deeper legal ...
GL: Amazing! Amazing!
RL: ... it's not amazing. We're not ...
GL: Amazing! Everyone can see this, everyone can see this and I'm delighted. Yes.
RL: Well yeah, everyone will see this, everyone will see this Graham, and I think some people will find it a tragedy that we've ended up here from such a comic genius ...
GL: We'll see.
RL: ... from such a brilliant mind. Let's bring ...
GL: We'll see how this goes down for you. We'll see how this goes down.
RL: ... let's bring in the voices in the studio as well. You've been listening into that Grace and Peter.
Peter, I'll come to you first because I know you've got some history with Graham as well, he's made accusations to you online, he was bringing up Stonewall then. Reminder to our viewers, you're an LGBT activist and campaigner. What do you make of all that?
PT: Well, what Graham likes to do is highlight the bad actions of a handful of people who are not representative of the trans community or the wider LGBT community. That is very very wrong. It's like those far right extremists who highlight terrorism by muslims to tar and demonise the whole muslim community. That is totally and utterly wrong. We have to say that trans people deserve dignity and respect. Giving them dignity and respect doesn't take away the rights of anybody else. And this is a community where the hate crime figures have soared in recent years, fuelled by toxic rhetoric from people like Graham and many others, and I just look at the kinds of responses that they generate. They generate, against me - I'm not even trans I'm just a trans ally - and if I make any statement in support of trans people I get threats to kill me, rape me and castrate me, by people who support Graham, and other trans critics. Now, I'm sure Graham would not agree with that but he is fuelling a toxic atmosphere and I know from my trans friends, one of the reasons I'm here tonight is because no trans person is willing to put themselves in the firing line and have threats to bomb their homes, to kill their children, to murder them and their partners. This is shocking and I just wish we could have a quiet, considered, rational debate, we can disagree but let's do so respectfully without demonising other people, without making these inflammatory statements.
You know, Graham must know, you know, he was axed from twitter because he made violent threats against other people. He was subjected to a police order over harassing people. He is not behaving in a way that is responsible and respectful.
RL: If I could have got another word in edgeways, but there's a point at which sometimes, you know, if I'd asked him another question he would have just started listing more allegations, there, but I wanted to speak to him, Grace, about exactly that. Do you not see the fanning of the flames to the wider community?
GB: I think you handled that well. I question, to be honest, the decision to have him on at all, because this is a prime example of what people say when they say "I've been cancelled", what they mean when they say "I've been cancelled". The idea that because you have views that are so objectionable, because you debate in a way that is so ... just grating, quite frankly, and rude, insulting, talking over people, unable to have a civilised conversation, unable to just look at the facts to kind of take into account people's rightly very, like, sincere feelings over this, and you then say, oh, and a private institution has stopped playing my show, therefor that's an abuse of the right to free speech, which of course it isn't. The right to free speech is something that is guaranteed by the state, largely to protect against tyranny from the state. It's to prevent things like what we're seeing at the moment with protesters being put in jail for just the act of protesting. And then because of that furore he then gets more publicity on shows like this to air his utterly abhorent views.
RL: Yes.
GB: That is cancellation in a nutshell.
RL: But ...
PT: I mean, it's very interesting, I defend the rights of free speech of people with whom I disagree, I've often defended Christian fundamentalists who've said horrible things about gay people, but I think they have a right to express that view providing it's within the law. What's interesting about people who are trans critics is they accuse others of doing bad things to them but they do exactly the same to others.
RL & GB in chorus: Mmmmmmmmm.
PT: So they're complaining about the very things that they do to other people.
RL: And I would like to pick up ... we're gonna cross back to Graham shortly. The point about having Graham on, and platforming him, I see where you're coming from, Grace, but if we do believe in free speech and listening to views we even find objectionable, I do think there is a ...
GB: I think this is my point though, about the free speech debate, which is that free speech, again, is part of the liberal framework, it's the framework of liberal democracy. And the idea is you have the right to freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and those things are guarantors against tyrannical rule, largely by the state. It doesn't mean you are owed a platform, it doesn't mean that a private organisation has to give you a stage, it simply means that if the state were to put you in prison for saying something, that would be unconstitutional.
RL: Yes. And most people in Britain could agree with that. Let's go ...
GB: But actually, yeah we've got illegal protests at the moment but that's perhaps a story for another day.
RL: It is for another day. Let's go back to Graham, who's been listening in, he's got a right of reply. Graham and I believe you know, we can't just start listing people, court cases and everything else, but you've just listened to what Peter and Grace were saying in the studio, I want to give you a chance to respond.
GL: Well Peter defamed me several times in that speech. He said that I sent violent threats to people, so once again I'm going to have to be speaking to legal people about this. I named central figures in the trans momevent who have never been called out by Peter Tatchell. Peter Tatchell who wrote a letter supporting ...
RL: Oh here we go. Yep.
GL: ... sex, between children and adults ...
RL: Please ...
GL: ... in the Guardian ...
RL: Graham ...
GL: ... in 1991.
RL: That's not what we're talking about Graham. Graham ...
GL: Or was it 1999?
RL: We are here ...
GL: Peter, what was that letter again?
RL: Graham.
GL: Can you tell us about the Sambia tribe?
RL: Graham.
GL: Peter?
RL: We wanted to talk to you about ...
GL: Don't lecture me. Don't lecture me when you are ignoring a man who ...
RL: We're not ignoring anything Graham. This isn't the conversation ...
GL: You are ignoring him.
RL: ... we invited you on to talk about ...
GL: You are ignoring - you allowed those two people ...
RL: ... we want to talk to you about ...
GL: You allowed those two people to defame me.
RL: You don't ...
GL: Can I go back to the original question?
PT: Could I ask Graham a question?
GL: What about my views do you disagree with?
RL: Can we ...
GL: What about my views do you disagree with?
PT: Graham, I want to ask you a question.
GL: Yes.
PT: I referred to a report that said that you had been suspended from Twitter because of violent threats. That ...
GL: Yes, which report?
PT: ... those reports have been widely reported.
GL: Where did that report arise?
PT: I also referred to other reports ...
GL: Where? Where? Because I would sue them if they said that. And you also mentioned the person who I was visited by, by the police. That was Stephanie Hayden. I suggest everyone at home look up Stephanie Hayden.
RL: We are going to end this debate here ... er ...
GL: Thank you, [inaudible, being faded out]
RL: ... it's .... I mean ... I don't know if I've learnt much but it has been interesting to get those views I suppose this evening, it's just it's ... yeah ... speechless.