‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

[IwantToRetire]

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

This issue has not impact on transgender rights except in the way it is framed.

There is no legitimate and proportionate reason to exclude them, and no provider even attempts to do so. Transgender people will continue to be able to use the loo associated with their gender.

There is no legitimate and proportionate reason to exclude them,

Yes there is in fact there are several.

Transgender people will continue to be able to use the loo associated with their gender.

Toilets are divided by sex not gender.

Are you male?

Ah Dadjoke another boring day so you’ve come to be annoying again

as usual you’re taking crap - it is perfectly legal to segregate toilets by sex

It has everything to do with a particular sex of people who are male who should not be using male toilets. Gender Neutral toilets have been insisted on as a solution but they have come at the expense of female single sex spaces not in addition.

It always remarkable to see male people telling women what they need by way of toilets.

They come up with great things like ‘you all have gender neutral toilets in your houses’ and telling women what they do in the toilets like ‘just pee peacefully’. Not realising that women and girls do so much more than ‘just pee’. Yet they feel they can lecture and shame women and girls into accepting male people in our toilets.

If they are male then they have no chance in telling us about our right to dignity and privacy

A male that doesn’t care about women to that extent - well I’m not sure why we have to hear it on the feminism board on mn

I hear you. I encourage it though. Because it just adds to the showing readers how misogynistic the arguments supporting these males accessing female spaces really are.

It shows readers that this is driven by male people. And once people see it, they cannot unsee it. Because then they look behind all the arguments and see the truth.

I mean, any woman knows that women are regularly using hand driers to dry their clothes after rinsing stains. That is just the start of the list.

It is a great privilege to have never had to use the toilets for anything other than urination and defecating. Yet it never ever occurs to a male person to ask questions. Because why would it ?

It's a straightforward, incontrovertible fact that trans women can legally use the women's loos and trans men, the men's, and have done for years, and this does not change that.

Itv would appear that most trans identified people would be more than happy with 'gender neutral' facilities. This needs to be campaigned for as a practical solution to the problem. Some new venues alreay have such a third facility - thereby meeting everyone's needs for dignity and privacy.

The landscape has changed quite drastically now, though. The only way forward is the obvious third spaces.

Yes. For the moment. Unless a group state otherwise. And we know from the LGB Alliance conference that some male people will ignore that and not respect an organisation who has did just that.

However, we also know there are males with trans identities who DO respect female needs and find alternatives.

But please do keep on dadjoke because it really does help readers to see male people telling women all about what trans people’s needs and how they should be prioritised over women’s needs.

It's a straightforward, incontrovertible fact that trans women can legally use the women's loos and trans men, the men's, and have done for years, and this does not change that.

Any man can "legally" use the women's loos. Decent men and "trans women" do not.

What is differnt in today's climate is that the transmovement and trans umbrella includes all sorts of people alongside the demand for self Id and the de- medicalisation of the process of gaining a GRC.

So, today - it is no longer about a small handful of fully transitioned homosexual MTF - the spectrum includes people " expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman"; heterosexual males who would formerly have been referred to as transvestites, and so on, Also people who have stormed buildings where women meet, assaulted women, sent vile messages on -line which show utter contempt and disregard for women.

The genie cannot be put back in the bottle - the landscape has irrevocably changed.

It's a straightforward, incontrovertible fact that trans women men can legally use the women's loos and trans men women, the men's, and have done for years, and this does not change that.

Being legal and being acceptable are not the same thing.

It is a straightforward incontrovertible fact that transwomen even if they have a GRC can legally be prevented from using the women's toilets and transmen even if they hold a GRC can legally be prevented from using the men's toilets, this too has applied for years.

Its easy to have a sex segregation policy.

I think the lies that have been told about it being illegal to segregate by sex have damaged credibility for trans people, as we know it's a lie they have used to force submission on unwilling women.

This really reflects badly. Claiming it's acceptable is just an indication of how much of a reality gap there is with men still thinking that they are welcome.

Has anyone mentioned upskirting yet?

Also the increased risk of hidden cameras?

Japan has apparently had a huge increase in these types of voyeurism in recent years. Mixed sex toilets and cubicles are a sure way to start the trend in Britain.

If the problem is the need to have loos that all people can use no matter how they identify, yet real women don't want real men in there loos - why don't they just change every men's loo's into gender neutral and leave the women's as they are? Why why why don't they do that?

'their'

And we know that Ives, a male, decided to ignore when a group stated this clearly.

This was a clear indication that some trans people will never respect a lawful exemption. Or any female person.

And yet, I never saw any ally or trans person denounce Ives for doing so. Not on this board or on twitter. It is very much like the ignorance of holding a rally to get a trans person attempted murderer out of jail when they clearly incited violence against women while on bail.

Because it is all about the men, the whole point of the exercise is to take away from women the female single sex toilets.

Misogynistic MRA power play.

DadJoke · Today 12:05

There is no legitimate and proportionate reason to exclude them...

You need to explain that, if you are able to. There are legitimate and proportionate reasons, which are well understood, such as the privacy and dignity of women and girls to use such facilities, without the fear of the presence of a man.

And that's not to mention the right of women and girls to not be subject to exposed male genitals, in spaces where they would not reasonably expect to encounter them.

and no provider even attempts to do so.

That is categorically and unequivocally untrue. Some places do enforce the rules, even if many do not.

Bannatyne's Gyms are something of a hot potato on the very subject, as a matter of fact.

Can you please name a provider who excludes trans women from women's loos (the topic of this discusion)?

The only example I can think of where this was attempted was a gender critical conference.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870071-gym-swimming-changing-issue?page=1

Here you go. The thread Sinner was talking about. Not hard to look.

The toilets are in the changing area and it is communal (later in the thread a regular poster who also uses that gym explains).

Another male walking through girls getting changed in the North at a swimming meet had to be clearly told that no ‘officials’ are supposed to be walking through any competitor change room despite that male individual doing so more than once while little girls were changing. The swimming body made the announcement ‘no official’ but it was very clearly a message for that male individual.

Why are male people so reluctant to abide by and respect decisions that legally exclude them? Can you tell us that dadjoke?

What type of male individual does this in particular? Do you support their position that those male individuals should be getting changed or walking through communal change rooms where females of any age, but particularly children are naked?

Do please tell us why they should or shouldn’t.