‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

[IwantToRetire]

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

"For example, the analysis could be read as suggesting that only 2% of respondents were supportive of disabled persons’ toilets. We do not, however, believe that if we had asked specifically if people supported disabled persons’ toilets being provided, only 2% of respondents would have said, ‘Yes’. We consider it more likely to be the case that people simply did not choose to comment on disabled persons’ toilets in their responses on the presumption that disabled persons’ toilets would continue to be provided – as is currently the case."

Which it's highly possible many also thought about single sex toilets. Including many of the trans people, who don't necessarily want all toilets to be mixed sex, they want to use the opposite sex ones.

"The same logic applies to all the headline percentages throughout this analysis. It should be noted that respondents choosing to comment on certain issues or toilet types mentioned in the call for evidence does not necessarily indicate a lack of support for those issues or toilet types they did not comment on."

Looks like the respondents were heavily weighted along TRA lines. It is inconceiveable that Joanne Public would suggest she'd prefer mixed sex toilets in public places.

Stonewall UK’s LGBT in Britain – Trans Report (2018), was cited in 11,866 responses (67% of all responses). The next most cited report or piece of research, with 115 citations, was a 2013 report by UCLA’s School of Law Williams Institute titled Gendered Restrooms and Minority Stress. 23 responses cited a 2019 report by the Royal Society for Public Health titled Taking the P* which highlighted the health impacts of limiting public toilet provision.

So in fact it's mostly trans people that want non gendered toilets and cited Stonewall.

Fascinating. So we can meet the Stonewall non gendered toilets request and women's sex segregated toilets and there's no need for men to use women's toilets at all.

Good result.

Let me guess...the same women who don't mind gender neutral toilets have no issues with men on top of the podium, gender neutral sports as well?

Precisely. Those sort of "women".

I conducted my own survey in Wetherspoons. The sample size was 4. A male member of staff was cleaning the female toilets. All 4 of us were queued to use the disabled rather than change our tampons in a cubicle with a male stood outside. What is the source of your survey please?

It seems similar to the original public consultation on Gender Self Id. If women's groups had not forced their voice and their view into the process, en mass,e only TRA invested organisations would have been consulted, In fact, that was the general idea, wsn't it?

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

The results and analysis are here.

Its quite clear that the Stonewall responses were all about keeping non binary people safe in non gendered toilets.

@ACatCalledPushka
Biological realist - I like that term. Thanks

The problem Harriet, is plenty of women also really do not care, they can't see the issue or it's never negatively impacted them.

I always used to think it was only men who were so deeply downright selfish, or at best, oblivious to ramifications. But there are plenty of women as well. Just none who post here.

How profoundly depressing <sigh>

Do the % matter if the outcome was still to say single sex toilets must be provided?

Although I take the pp about existing buildings

Sure but the analysis is quite nuanced and concludes that all needs can and should be met.

Ultimately if Stonewall citations correlate with gender neutral, then I think we have evidence for identity people to use gender neutral as they don't want single sex toilets.

No need at all for men with an identity to use women's.

Their community has spoken.

Gender neutral toilets are all over continental Europe without complaint AFAIK.

Definitely not true for Germany, or the bits of France, Italy and Austria I know well.

What is a non gendered toilet when it's at home? Is it a toilet that declares they/them pronouns?

Toilet provision is, was and always should be decided on a sex basis, gender is irrelevant.

As to the guff about mixed sex free for alls in European toilets - the poster making this claim is talking crap.

I agree, donnawinters basically said that no one wants single sex toilets at all so the male trans people can't be all that bothered about accessing women's spaces, they can use the "gender neutral" ones.

Exactly.

The addition of gender neutral facilities has always been the obvious solution - alongside male and female, of course. And as the consultation above suggests - most of the respondents would choose to use that provision, leaving the women's toilets for women.

Yes, and the huge number of Stonewall citations really does tell us this is coming from the community.

Correct. Always worth pointing out that this is a male dominated demand. No groups of women anywhere in the world have demanded mixed sex toilets (or showers or changing rooms, sports etc)

This has been done to women by men.

I'm confused what this means. Non gendered can mean male and female surely? So sex based toilets. Nothing to do with gender? Females of all gender in the female loos but no males in there.

Men’s rights… to administer medical care to a non consenting woman?

Yes, sadly I think you are correct about the agenda.

The party of common sense? 🤣🤣🤣

I think this has shown how difficult it is, even when intentions are good(!) to have an all purpose survey aimed at the public at large.

Putting aside the significant fact that even for those who have English as their first language we have different understandings of words, and as the recent survey by MBM shows that when new lobbyist language is introduce there is even further confusion.

I do remember at the time the survey was launched and I think posted here(?) it was called a "technical" survey which made it sound like you need to know about building regulations etc..

I think this was some time ago, I mean years, and mabye they weren't too happy with the results (and like the GRA?) have concluded something that the actual figures maybe dont support. So they sort of slipped out the results back in early July.

With the idea that in the autumn there would be a consultation on the proposals they will put forward.

So not sure (as I said in OP) whether KB is just using this as an opportunity to put herself forward the the sensible pragmantic member of the Tory cabinet or whether the cabinet (do they agree on anything?) that it would be good to get peopl e interested in the run up to the autumn survey.

I dont know if this link has been shared but there is a table which spells out the direction they are heading https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2022-07-04/hcws172

I cant quite reconcile the language in that to the words in KB's article:

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

We want a society where transgender people are treated with respect and sensitivity. But this needs to be done sensibly. For obvious reasons, women face longer queues than men to use the toilet. We have physical needs that are more complex, from menstruation to pregnancy and menopause. Female-only toilets give women the peace of mind that they will be shielded from having their privacy violated.

Unisex toilets are very different to “gender neutral” facilities. A unisex toilet is similar to a bathroom in a family home: a fully enclosed room with a handbasin and lockable door. In a venue, like a small café, there may only be space for a single unisex toilet. A “gender-neutral” facility is a mixed sex facility where men and women use the same toilet cubicles and the same facilities to wash and dry their hands.

Providing a unisex option means transgender people have a private facility where they won’t be subject to invasive questions, and they should be accessible so disabled people can use them with greater ease.

The problem is that trans women think they are women, and so are entitled to us women only places