‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

[IwantToRetire]

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

To be clear those are two different incidents. In fact. Bannatynes now is investigating three or four separate incidents in their gyms.

Without qualification or further clarification, presumably that means sex as per the Equality Act guidance on separate and single-sex services

I think it is quite clear from KB article she is talking about biological females. All of her proposals are based on the reality of biological sex.

Under the existing EA Single Sex Exemptions, it would be quite possible for any providers of toilets to say there is a need to women to have single sex toilets. A lot of this isn't even about trans ideology but lazy providers going for the easy option.

So there is nothing to stop any of us saying to those running a public building that given the protected characteristics of sex, they should be providing single sex toilets.

Assuming this new rule comes in, and is applied, the next step is to reterospectively get existing public buildings to comply. Which shouldn't be that difficult given that in the past all public buildings would have have had toilet provision based on meeting the need of the 2 sexes.

I dont think any women stand to wee.

I think some women are hugely suspicious of how clean the seat of a public toilet is, so sort of hover over the toilet so that bum doesn't touch seat. Hence some splashes.

But as said up thread, why dont they wipe down the seat. Or maybe their aversion to the seat is so strong they cant even bare to wipe it. (I am not being silly about this. I have a couple of friends who have really strong feelings about hygene and short of going out with surgical gloves to then wipe the seat would leave a splatter.) Just to add which I am sure no one cares about, if I am going to "hover" in fact I lift the seat.)

I am cross with myself for joining in this thread derail.

But just to say because some women "hover" it isn't in any way compatible with having urinals.

Nope. Women shouldn't stand to wee. I have been trying it out all day.

I can only suppose now that the person who told us that is not female or has an amazing pelvic floor!

So, I think that we can really take any male opinion on why women and girls should never have access to single sex toilets again due to some males forcing access as being based on their own misogyny and not informed at all.

It is based also on male people never actually thinking past their very own limited toilet usage and may be completely unaware of the other many needs of female uses of toilets that are certainly NOT suitable for 'gender neutral' toilets. They simply have no idea and probably it never once occurred to them to think about it. Why should it after all?

And reminders of the EA 2010 just serves as a reminder that currently some organisations feel they cannot claim the exceptions, and some are only listening to support groups lobbying for the priority to be accommodating male needs and not female needs, and that when some organisations do in fact claim the exceptions that some male trans people choose to ignore it. It also serves as a reminder that maybe the language in the Act needs to be clarified more so that more organisations take notice.

Some posts do seem to be very out of touch though. Because the growing swell of female people rejecting males in the toilets, changing rooms and other single sex spaces is growing every single year. Every year there are incidents and there is growing awareness that certain lobby groups have been successful in getting this access when really, it is based on fuck all evidence! And the overwhelming majority of people reject males using female single sex spaces.

Not sure just what the collateral number of women and girls harmed will be before the voices of women and girls will be considered equally to those currently prioritised male individuals. But we are getting there, the public don't support it and support is diminishing not growing.

Git gud

Its funny how the left always goes on about the culture wars being stoked by the Tories, when more often than not it is the left ignoring the issue (usually women) and stoke up the "wars" by picking on one aspect which they think will score a point against the Tories.

There was confusion over a report in The Sunday Telegraph which claimed that ministers planned to appoint a Lavatories Tsar.

Labour’s mayor of Newham Council compared it to John Major’s much-mocked “cones hotline” fiasco in the early 1990s, when the then Tory PM was ridiculed for his focus on minor traffic issues during a major economic recession.

But the government later made clear that it had no plans to bring in a tsar, pointing out that it had rejected a Labour amendment to the Levelling Up and Regeneration Bill in October to have a commissioner for public loos.

However, some on social media questioned the government’s sense of priorities for focusing on bathroom rows during a cost of living crisis.

One Twitter user said voters “can’t pay our rent, mortgages, fuel bills, or buy food” while ministers were tackling the issue of “sex-segregated lavatories”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gender-neutral-toilets-tories-trans-b2392253.html

DadJoke

Can you please name a provider who excludes trans women from women's loos (the topic of this discusion)?

I already have, in the last sentence of my post, which immediately preceded yours.

But unfortunately for you (and people who think like you), women are increasingly saying they don’t want male-bodied people in their single-sex spaces.

It didn’t used to be an issue, because (with the exception of predators), male-bodied people didn’t enter women’s single sex spaces. They didn’t need to be told not to.

And for the most part, they don’t need to be told now, either.

Except - we are now in a position where some male-bodied people (some trans, some not, but all - without exception - selfish and inappropriate), are entering women’s single sex spaces.

So we’re having to come out and #beunkind and say ‘NO. We don’t want you here’. What once worked as an informal, mutually agreed set-up no longer works, because of a small, selfish minority.

And the numbers saying, ‘no - we don’t want you here’ is only getting larger. And we’re definitely not going away.

Loos, not changing rooms.

And you have again failed to read the links.

The case that Sinner is discussing has the toilets IN the changing rooms. Many gym and sports facilities do. Maybe you have never been in one, but they are very common.

Why are you trying to distract from the reality of what is covered?

DadJoke, you may not be a nincompoop, but you are currently doing an excellent impersonation of one.

All this has happened under the Tories' governments. How dare they say they are watching out for women!

Its funny how the left always goes on about the culture wars being stoked by the Tories, when more often than not it is the left ignoring the issue (usually women) and stoke up the "wars" by picking on one aspect which they think will score a point against the Tories.

If you just look at the words "conservatives" and "progressives" you can take a guess at who is likely to be pushing a culture war.

The left-wing rhetoric seems to me to be about saying that the other side has bad motives, and keeping the focus on that, rather than actually trying to win on the issues.

all around the world the trans agenda has sneaked in, regardless of government. It has successfully trojan horsed it's way into policies. So although what has happened has happened under conservatives, if we compare where the UK is now, with other countries - think Ireland, Spain, Canada, Australia, NZ, Germany, USA ... We're actually in a fairly good position, and I think that is down to the tories/lords. I'm sure if the trojan horse had entered during a labour/lib/green government the horse would be completely rampaging about the place uncontrolled.

it seems that under the tories it has snuck in, and is on a slowly shortening leash.

(I say this as a life long labour voter. Ex labour voter now. GO KEMI!!))

I don't live in the UK anymore but am here on holiday and I'm actually quite shocked at how bad the mixed sex loos are. Today I walked in on a man who hadn't bothered to shut the cubicle door. ALL of the loos have been dirtier and smellier than I expected. I don't let my dd go in on her own anymore as she doesn't feel safe. Why do women have to put up with this crap?
As an aside I was remembering how hard it was to use loos with a double pushchair on my own. Sometimes I could leave the door ajar and rely on other women to understand. Must be so much harder now.

The left-wing rhetoric seems to me to be about saying that the other side has bad motives, and keeping the focus on that, rather than actually trying to win on the issues.

Yes they always do this. They never have any substance. And in fact are more likely when they think the Tories have a voter appealing policy to say it is part of a culture war.

The Left never wants to talk about the substance of issues and policies because they dont have the first idea.

Like this stupidly repeated comment about "this all happened under the tories" as though everyone on FWR is out of touch with what has happened in the UK.

But what we also know is if Labour had been in power self id would now be legal and possibly at age 16.

So yet again, an attempt to slur the Tories, rather than talk about what Labour could or would do.

And in fact given how many different Ministers for Women the Tories have quite an achievement from the point of view of women's sex based rights, that the ill conceived suggestions to ammending the GRA didn't happen.

And like others have said. All too depressing to realise this.

As it is Starmer has said he wouldn't have challenged the Scottish Parliament GRR so we can all see how paper thin his committment to women is, let alone child safety.

And this will be our future.

In a decade we will be looking back at this as a golden age for women, wiped out by a Labour government.

“As an aside I was remembering how hard it was to use loos with a double pushchair on my own. Sometimes I could leave the door ajar and rely on other women to understand. Must be so much harder now.”

You are not alone in doing that. Many women have had to do this. Even for women with care of others with disabilities where there is no usable disabled toilet. It does happen that at times a disabled toilet is not available in time.

Yet, every single poster who does the ‘they just want to pee’ is one who shows themselves to be either male with no fucking concept of the needs of women and girls, or they are women who have no caring responsibilities and who have never once considered others.

It shows the inherent misogyny underlying the ‘just want to pee’ mantra.

Not toilets in changing rooms. Toilets - the subject under discussion.

As other posters have agreed, transgender people can use the loo associated with their gender, and have done for years.

I have never used a 'unisex' toilet that hasn't been an enclosed cubicle with its own sink etc. I would have no issue with those at all.

Why are you doubling down? Is it that you actually see there is a difference, yet one provision is ‘just as legal’ as the other so you are trying desperately to limit the discussion to suit your desire to not allow the point that some toilets are inside changing rooms and those are covered by same provisions, yet male individuals ignore those provisions in all cases?

Your constant attempt to redirect doesn’t change the fact that you are here telling women that women and girls have to accept males in the single sex spaces or the loss of female single sex spaces. You! A male! You are doing this on a feminist board with little understanding of why we need those spaces.

Please do continue Dadjoke because all those reading can see it clearly. Why can’t you?

Ever fitted a very full pram with loads of shopping or a double pram in one?

What about having to assist an elderly woman in a wheelchair when there is no disable toilet?

Ever had to assist a woman after a miscarriage who needs privacy in a female toilet?

Or do you just believe these are all made up and don’t happen because it has never happened to you? Fine to have gender neutral alternatives in addition, but not fine to replace female single sex toilets. Life happens and in a female life it is not just a place to fucking pee.

Yay! For you Maddy. But you don’t get to decide what people use the toilets for and to decide for all women and girls whether only unisex provision is to be provided.

In fact, the UK government had a consultation on this very topic and came back with the recommendations that female single sex toilets are most definitely needed.

Good for you! Go and use those toilets and other people will continue to campaign to preserve female single sex spaces.

Only skimmed TFT but I'm fully in favour of what I've heard called "superloos" - the fully enclosed ones like tiny bathrooms.

But apparently, as @Helleofabore has proved above, this isn't an opinion we are allowed to to have.

Oh and Maddy, I can list places off the top of my head right now that have ‘unisex’ toilets that are not ‘floor to ceiling’ cubicles and have no hand basins in the cubicles. How lucky are YOU that you have never been in one.

I have even been in female toilets where there is a urinal for the men before you reach the cubicles and you have to wash your hands near the urinal.