‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

[IwantToRetire]

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

Are youy aware that pissoirs are standard for men, even in public spaces, in France.

Really? I'm not sure any of us were aware of that until you told us.

The difference at home, as you must surely know, is that people in our home are known and as a result tend to be intimate with each other - therefore hopefuly more considerate and respectful than strangers; although of course we know for many women and girls they are not even safe at home.

I agree with you! I don’t need it explained. It’s a completely ridiculous comparison.

So individual cubicles better then, surely? It’s storm in a teacup stuff.

Just because you are superior M doesn't mean you get to dismiss something that's important to others.

No. In normal toilets with cubicles you have the security of other women being around. You are less at risk of being followed in. You are less at risk of being unnoticed if you are vulnerable.

Erm 🫤 rid dic u luss

In an ideal world where toilets are perfect and we all go to the loo simultaneously.

Not all blokes are dodgy and every woman isn’t trustworthy.

In the nighttime economy yes, there is usually plenty of traffic in the ladies loos.

Actually in most public toilets there is sufficient traffic.

Wee all over the seat is bog standard in public lavatories. I can compute why folk choose to stand but not why 70+% don’t wipe the seat

Erm no and that’s why I didn’t by any stretch of the imagination say that. Do women squat in a line and wee in a gully? Men at urinals do equivalent. It is practically medieval and many blokes never use them

If you look at the consultation data and analysis under discussion on the thread, non binary people have said they want gender neutral toilets for their own safety.

Actually, separate cubicles is the answer you just showed us is the correct one - ie not some his and hers collective and not private situation

So a queue for sep cubicles is different? Only in respect that men might also have to queue. In life we currently only queue separately for the loo. Some good equality then.

Maybe we should follow sports example - have female public toilets and an open category for males or women who find the womens toilets offensive.

Transwomen are not interested in any sort of compromise. It’s women’s spaces or bust.

I've been following this for years and I was very confused by the term "non-gendered toilets".

These civil servants need to stop this "gendered" smokescreen bollocks and talk about "mixed-sex". The legislation relates to sex - not gender. This is deliberate, ideologically driven and deceitful.

The new consultation:

Open consultation: 13 Aug - 8 Oct 2023
Toilet provision in buildings other than dwellings: technical consultation
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation

Look at these lovely notices that management has had put up in a pub after they changed the sign on The Ladies to "Cubicles" and the sign on one of The Gents toilets to "Urinals" (there is no cubicle in that one, just urinals).

Just in! New definition of "Women": "those who can't use urinals".

The "private space" in the second notice must refer to the cubicles because the main door is now permanently wedged open, so anyone passing by can see right through into a cubicle if the cubicle door is open. Presumably now wedged open so that anyone passing by can see if a woman is being attacked in there.

The other toilet that was the second Gents has urinals plus one cubicle; you have to walk past the urinals to get to the cubicle. The door on the cubicle doesn't lock and the main door doesn't lock. It just says "Toilet" on the main door and that door opens straight on to the urinals. So although it is theoretically "mixed sex" it is not used by women.

So now the men have three set of toilets and in what was The Ladies they have been pissing in full view with the cubicle doors open and/or wandering out of the cubicles with their dicks on display. Of course they fucking have.

I remain to be convinced that any "non-binary" female would genuinely "feel safer" in either of the mixed-sex facilities now available, rather than in what was The Ladies.

Do non-binary females really breathe a sigh of relief when they enter and see strange men pissing and wandering around with their cocks hanging out?

The only people who benefit are men, males. All men but particularly perverts.

I am sick to death of selfish, virtue-signalling women like the manager of that pub, women who are prepared to subject other women to the indignity and trauma of being closeted with dirty, stinking perverts.

We need a new rating system for establishments like that - it gets P3

• Pronouns in she/her's bio
• Progress flag on the wall
• Perverts in the toilets

Thanks for new consultation. It seems more aimed at building reg people than general public and is technical

If anyone else fills it out are you saying yes to T1?

It looks ok to me but might be good to share views first

Also because consultations seem to get flooded by TRAs skewing the results

Actually, separate cubicles is the answer you just showed us is the correct one - ie not some his and hers collective and not private situation

If we are going to mimic your non His and Her home set up then the cubicles need to be fully enclosed, have a toilet, sink, dryer (or hand towels which will require a bin to put them in after use) and a sanitary bin. This will (1) take up more space and (2) be more expensive. They will also require more regular cleaning, they will need to be situated in an easily viewable and accessible area - not down a dark dank corridor out of view. There are rules on the numbers of toilets required per the number of people who will use them so places will do the bare minimum due to space and expense if they have to provide fully enclosed units, you can surely work out what that will mean.

All this could be easily avoided if males whatever they think they are just stayed the fuck out of women's spaces, if they had the basic decency and respect not to violate the boundaries of women. The only reason this is now an issue is down to MRAs/TRAs, selfish entitled males and Stonewall, they are entirely responsible for this mess.

Does anyone really think that self policing and the interests of women will be out first, even with seperate toilets being provided?

The cat's out of the bag, and after a decade of (im)polite society fawning over these individuals, they will not give up their gatecrashing proclivities.

They believe they're women, ergo will use Kemi's new women's toilets.

No RealityFan I don't, the attitude and behaviour is a feature not a bug which is why it needs to be made explicit that female toilets are for females only and it should be made an offence to violate that with both the violator and the premises being liable. The only way to stop this is to be draconian.

I suggest it is more a case of a lack of fellow feeling/empathy and imagination from you.

Cubicles in a mixed sex block or corridor do not alleviate the discomfort felt - especially in the night time. economy.