‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

[IwantToRetire]

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

Organisations are entitled to use the exceptions in their policies so if unisex non gendered toilets have been supported by Stonewall citations in this consultation there is a very strong evidence base to apply a policy that expects sex facilities to be biological and identity to use the gender neutral/unisex that they have asked for.

Its all very reasonable and clear.

They can think what they like, they are not and they are not entitled to use women only spaces.

The problem is that trans women think they are women, and so are entitled to us women only places

No they assert they are and insist on imposing themselves when clearly they aren't wanted.

And as I understand it part of the new proposals are to clearly label toilets in relation of biological sex, ie not gender identity or acquired "legal sex".

That'll be behind their apparent espousal of single sex spaces, though, you can be sure.
They imagine they can still swan into whichever one takes their fancy.

They imagine they can still swan into whichever one takes their fancy.

They only imagine they can because too many institutions are all too willing to collude with their fantasy.

I suspect this will be the problem. However much KB / the Tories want to present this as the common sense propobals the TRAs and the hangers on will label it transphobic and all those who have been stonewalled will meekly follow on.

As ever women's rights will not be seen as being important.

They only imagine they can because too many institutions are all too willing to collude with their fantasy.

In which case they have to make it non negotiable and an offence to (a) not provide resolutely single sex only spaces and (b) for someone to enter a space for the opposite sex.

I know we will now get the what about transmen trope, which is why a third gender neutral/mixed sex alternative option will need to be available.

I think all loos should be unisex cubicles, there should be no such thing as urinals. Surely the idea that men want to pee standing next to other blokes is more than a bit eww/ick and seems thoroughly outdated.

You may be happy to go into a cubicle that has just been vacated by a man who has pissed all over the seat and floor. Fucked if I am.

In which case they have to make it non negotiable and an offence to (a) not provide resolutely single sex only spaces and (b) for someone to enter a space for the opposite sex.

Well the article explains that (a) is what public buildings will be required to do.

As to (b) I suspect those who run buildings wont want the cost of security staff and cant see the police responding to a 999 call about this.

Which brings us back to the fact that it will only be sucessful if society as whole collaborates to make it happen.

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies. We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out. Public Lavatories often leave a lot to be desired, going unisex won’t make it any worse or better

Speak for yourself, please. You're unlikely to find a strange man in your private bathroom that you haven't explicitly invited into your home.
Nobody wants to share toilet facilities with dodgy blokes. And any bloke thinking he has the right to bulldoze himself in there, for whatever reason, is definitely dodgy.

Women standing up to wee. Seriously? Every once in a while I have noticed that a little water can splash out of the bowl when I flush but it is rare.

As for not needing His and Hers at home, DH wouldn't survive making a mess a second time.

Society will collaborate far quicker and more effectively if they are aware that is an offence to not provide single sex facilities and also if someone breaks those boundaries.

We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out.

Do you regularly join your dh or guests in your home toilet when they are using it? Do you have a bank of toilets and then a separate hand washing area?

You talk nonsense.

Even in the night time economy? I'm not sure that many women would feel comfortable in a corridor of unisex loos when out at a club or a similar type of nightspot. In fact women often use the toilets as an escape from unwanted male attention.

I was in a pub in Edinburgh once and there was a handwriiten sign pinned on the wall of the Ladies' loo - suggesting to women who had a reason not to want be with a man they had maybe met on a blind date or similar, for whatver reason - that there was a named person behind the bar they could approach for assistance.

You think men peeing standing up is outdated?

In my experience unisex toilets are smellier and dirtier than female toilets. It's really basic biology. Some people who pee standing up inevitably pee on the floor. I have yet to go in a unisex toilet without a disgusting floor! Yes, a lot of public toilets are already disgusting but why make them more disgusting for women? How do women benefit? Oh that's right, as usual they don't.

I had to use mixed sex toilets at a meeting in London recently. It was just so awful going into a cubicle next to male colleagues and male directors.
I absolutely won't do it again. Ever.
I just felt so on show! We all know we can hear each other weeing sometimes you know!! I don't want to hear a male colleague weeing and I don't want them to hear me weeing / ripping open a tampon etc.
Just NO

In fact women often use the toilets as an escape from unwanted male attention.

OMG yes!
How the hell do we have that girlie pep talk, help me, I've had enough let's get out of here chat with a female friend if the lads can just follow you in?

You can’t, that’s the point.

Trying reading what she said again….

Right, but …. you know everyone using your loos at home……..?

I'm still locked out on

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies.

I'm perfectly aware of what was said....but the reason for urinals is not for men to piss together - but because it is more practical, I assume, in men's facilities. If men want the option of a private cubicle it is there, though.