Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

Thanks @Norma27

Gaslighting children?

Disgusting.

Indeed.

So many organisations have been Stonewalled into being too afraid to use the single sex exceptions.

CalMeKate The singular of woman is woman.

I can’t answer that as I have absolute no idea. And this situation with a man pretending to be a transwomen to gain access is a very real and possible threat.

The behaviour is what is important. If the behaviour feels wrong it probably is. The fact the transwomen has breast implants implies to me that this isn’t a man pretending but someone who was born male and now identifies as female.

There's that conflict of rights that we're told doesn't exist. Rights are not pie, remember?

Actually they are.

Men have their own slice of pie, their own rights.

Special men have decided to take the slice of pie that belongs to women.

Women have no slice of pie.

I repeat, you're a bloody disgrace (I mean the "safeguarding expert", not 334bu)

Trans rights are now a standard within our society so preparing children how to navigate this world we live in is far safer including transpeople than excluding them from your narrative.

No child should have to navigate anu world where the feelings of trans identifying men are considered more important than theirs.

There is no difference.

Trans rights are now a standard within our society

Trans people have the same rights as everyone else.
What they demand is that male feelings completely override any and all female rights and protections.

It IS NOT a 'human right' for a man, regardless of any claimed 'gender identity' to access female spaces.

The behaviour is what is important. If the behaviour feels wrong it probably is. The fact the transwomen has breast implants implies to me that this isn’t a man pretending but someone who was born male and now identifies as female.

OP’s daughters have said the behaviour feels wrong. Because it is wrong. They are made to feel uncomfortable and have to take actions to avoid this male person.

Whether the individual has breasts and/or feels like a woman is irrelevant.

I completely agree with you. More so than I do regards trans rights.

“It is factually accurate in our society that there are transwomen with penis.”

Yes.

”That doesn’t make them female and that shouldn’t give them access to female single sex spaces.”

”This society is accepting and inclusive of transwomen and transmen. Transpeople have the right to change their passport and driving licence to reflect the gender they are”

Still doesn’t change their sex and it doesn’t mean it is appropriate in anyway for males to be naked in an open female single sex space. You are continuing to use ideology to support sexual abuse. There is no reasonable male adult who should feel it is appropriate to have their dick out in a female single sex space. You have completely failed to morally support your position that it is acceptable behaviour.

Gradually the organisations who have supported this ideological thinking in the past are changing their policies. It will take time. But your continued doubling down her as well as attempting now to blame ‘society’ to distance yourself from your own actions fools no one. You have tried to lecture the OP on how his daughters should talk about their abuser and how this male individuals presence should be accepted as normal.

TW are men, they belong in the male changing rooms and all your justification CalmeKat is just piss & wind

(Trans rights are now a standard within our society so preparing children how to navigate this world we live in is far safer including transpeople than excluding them from your narrative*

No one should have the right to expose their genitals to unconsenting members of the opposite sex. Not even trans people. If that's what you take the phrase " trans rights" to mean then you are too far down the rabbit hole to help tbh

1 It's not a human right for a male to watch females of any age undress without their explicit consent.

2 It's not a right for a male with breast implants to force females out of their own single sex spaces.

3 It's not a right for a male in a wig and dress to stroll casually through a female changing room whilst teenagers are changing after swimming.

4 It's not a right for a male who has undergone extensive surgery to remove his genitals and hormonal treatment of varous kinds to use facilities set aside for the female sex.

5 It's no more a right to them than it is a right for a male who lost his genitals and lower limbs when he stepped on a land mine in a war situation.

What's the difference? I'd argue that Number 5 is the safest option because he wouldn't WANT to be in with women and girls.

The least safe male is the one who pushes in where he's not supposed to be.

“The fact the transwomen has breast implants implies to me that this isn’t a man pretending but someone who was born male and now identifies as female.”

So the fuck what!!

Do you, in your position of safeguarding, have the studies that show that a male who has had breast augmentation and all the hormones they want commit sex crime at a rate that is lower than the general male population?

Anything?

Or are you still here repeating unfounded theoretical thinking and belief?

What difference does a male having fucking breast augmentation make? have you not seen the images of the male people with trans identities convicted for sex crimes? Have you not seen the male people with breast augmentation who are self publishing themselves in starring roles of porn masturbating in female single sex spaces?

The very simple answer then is that women and girls retain single sex spaces away from people with penises.

It's not for 9 year old girls to police or deal with intent/behaviour whether someone has had a pair of fake tits or no.

Where we do have agreement is that it's very important to have conversations with children about concerning behaviour from adults, especially online, some of it is blatant grooming in plain sight.

• «a man pretending to be a transwomen to access women and or girls in the changing room»

and how do we know which guys are pretending to be transwomen and which guys are pretending to be women?

What is the difference?
And why should I care?

Transpeople need to campaign for a Third space, distinct from the disabled facilities.
Good luck.

I don’t have a lack of insight into trans-women’s rights. I very much disagree that ANYONE should have special rights afforded them that takes away from women (and or the disabled).
Fix your own thing. I will not share my (women’s) stuff.

That does not mean any penis belongs in the female changing.
Take your gaslighting and shove it with your male privilege.

“The fact the transwomen has breast implants implies to me that this isn’t a man pretending but someone who was born male and now identifies as female.”

Great, but whether this is a genuine TW or a male person pretending they’re a TW is utterly irrelevant. They’re both adult males and neither of them belong in the female changing room.

Do you have male relatives? Hopefully they’re nice people and not predators in any way, right? But, lovely as they might be, we still don’t want them in the female changing rooms. It’s really not difficult!

@CalMeKate "my point is this situation, with a transwomen being in a typically female space, is not isolated and will continue throughout their lives. They need to feel safe and comfortable to navigate these situations.

If I was OP I would start by having a conversation with all the children but especially the girls that he wants to know when they feel like this, the situation in its entirety, and how they kept them selves safe. Or what they might do if they find them selves in this situation again. Maybe in a public toilet at the cinema etc etc. The conversation with the children is more important that the conversation with Bannatynes. Who may block this person attending but what happens next time, because there will be a next time."

So how do children and females navigate this situation if as you say we have no choice but to accept men polishing their penis' in front of us and watching us undress without our consent?

If we are to be forced into becoming the unwilling participants in some man's validation/fetishistic fantasies, what options do we have. Should we just push down our feelings until we can successfully lie to ourselves that we're ok with it? Do we self exclude and no longer take part in sport activities, medical treatments, rape crisis support etc? Are we still allowed to feel violated but just not express that in any way, so smile at the nice pervert so they don't get upset and then we can cry and feel ashamed in private?

Does it not matter that TRAs and allies are trying to condition girls into thinking that they don't deserve to succeed in sports or STEM or writing awards because the poor TW is more special so we should just let them win everything to be kind and supportive?

You are welcome. I will update the thread if there are any updates.

Aunty Lydia would be so proud...

Tell us kate how do you prepare girls to understand abusive situation such as a male, complete with augmented breasts, exposing their penis to them while also teaching them that any micro aggression that that male perceives is transphobia?

Because that is now a thing.

That any female person responding with a ‘micro aggression’ can be accused of transphobia and receive either punishment or re-education.

Or would you teach your daughter that any male above the age of 8 exposing their penis to them is perfectly fine in a place she expects to be female only. Or do you teach children that female people have penises you then make it impossible for a girl to work out whether the activity is ‘abusive’ or not because you are entrenched in an ideological position.

A penis does not belong in a female space - how is it any more complicated than that?

And no society does not accept this as the new normal - there’s nothing normal or acceptable about it and we need to keep fighting against this erosion of female rights and safety to ensure it NEVER becomes the norm