Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

Yes, that sounds like many 'changing villages' in swimming pools here. Nobody is ever naked, and there are signs up warning people not to use their phones or take photographs.

And showing your penis to unconsenting females is abuse. It's flashing. This person could be using a cubicle, one exists, fully self contained with shower. They are choosing to expose themselves to women and girls

Agree with this. The person chose to expose themself to the women and girls in the changing room rather than going into the cubicle.
Women and girls should not have to see penises in changing rooms, or anywhere else, unless in the context of a consensual sexual encounter.
The person may well have transitioned and call identify as a woman, dress as a woman, pass as a woman, call themselves a transwoman, whatever. But the fact is, they have a penis and they should have the decency to respect women and use a cubicle to get changed to avoid exposing themselves.

Since when is it ok to go around flashing your penis at people?
It's outrageous.

I live in Europe and swim a lot in German and Austrian pools. All changing rooms are mixed, with lockers and cubicles. Showers are then separate - male and female.
I have never seen anyone wandering around deliberately exposing their genitals to others. There is absolutely no need for it. And if people are doing that, I think there's an ulterior motive and they enjoy having their genitals on display.

No.

You are, absolutely, advocating for a fully grown adult male to be allowed, nay APPLAUDED, for having his fully grown male genitals openly on display in a FEMALE changing room in front of CHILDREN.

Lets not pretend to be stupid. You know exactly what you're advocating for.

Flashing.

For me this thread is also highlighting something that I haven't encountered yet in the argument for 3rd spaces.

People who really need to use disabled spaces are going to start feeling increasingly pushed out when they get used as the default either for women and girls who want a private space and no other is available, or by TW who wants a private space and no other is available.

(OP I am definitely not suggesting that your girls shouldn't use that space, I absolutely agree with them using it in that circumstance)

I'm wary that disabled spaces are going to become "the lazy leisure centre managers" cheap 3rd space option.

The trouble with the 'changing villages' approach is it makes it easy for men who want to indulge in voyeurism to stick a phone camera over or under partitions. That said, I have never personally had any difficulty in ours. But as an older woman, I guess I wouldn't be a target, any dodgy blokes probably check out who goes in.

The men wandering around naked in front of the op's son is also inappropriate I think. I know men are more relaxed with nudity but kids and teens are very embarrassed by it.

@thirdfiddle I'm beginning to think we're very lucky at out local centre, we have a 'village' with lots of cubicles, both family and single.

Then we have separate M/F changing rooms away from that, with private cubicles and showers and loos.

There are also very good disabled/accessible spaces in each of these and separate ones also.

This is not a new state of the art facility either. It's an old council leisure centre but they've done a great job with making sure everyone has space to attend.

How do we feel about lesbian women being naked in front of teenage girls whilst getting changed in the changing room?

PP have correctly called this comment homophobic, but we have all heard this before and it is trotted out as a gotcha.

Women though, WOMEN, never care about the possible sexual orientation of other women in women's spaces. They just don't.

It could be something men might imagine women feeling, though.

It could be something men might imagine women feeling, though.

Heh, I think @ILikeDungs has it.

Please complain! Royally unacceptable and this man sounds like a pervert.

Women though, WOMEN, never care about the possible sexual orientation of other women in women's spaces. They just don't.

Fwiw, the parallel situation with men in men's spaces is also a complete non-issue.

It could be something men might imagine women feeling, though.

Yes, the men who watch too much porn. Apparently ’lesbian’ is a very popular category. Along with secret filming of unconsenting girls in toilets and changing rooms. Tens of thousands of them uploaded to online porn sites.

Then it’s just up to chance if you discover a film of your naked self being monetised and passed around for mens sexual pleasure. Obviously unisex spaces make this type of voyeuristic offence far more likely.

The best way you can keep your child safe is by encouraging them to have strong boundaries, knowing the difference between “stranger danger” and “strange behaviour”.

So it's up to children to protect themselves against predatory adults? Seriously? Yes, of course we should give them the tools to help themselves, but in any case here they are, coming across "strange behaviour" in the women's changing rooms (i.e. a naked male body with not even any attempt at discretion), and they have informed their father, who wants to challenge it. Do you not consider this "strange behaviour" on the part of the "tranniemannie"? And if you don't, what would be? Assault? Photographing the girls? By which point the damage is done. Which of course can be avoided if we don't allow male bodies in female changing rooms.

How would we even know? Their sexuality is entirely irrelevant in this situation. Whenever one of these transplainers pops up with their lesbian gotcha you just know it’s a bloke posting. They have no concept of how women behave in shared female spaces and no concept of female sexualities. Honestly, I wish MN had a mute button for these posters. They are so disingenuous.

OP, it’s really good your daughters have broached how uncomfortable the male in their changing room is making them feel. Please be robust in your response and ensuring their safety and privacy. It’s not just the indecent exposure you need to worry about, it’s this male using their access to take pictures of them which can be shared elsewhere. You need an appropriate response to your concerns about the risks your daughters been exposed to by your gym’s policies.

@CalMeKate not only is your second post offensive and homophobic it's also downright stupid.

I don't care what sexuality the women in the changing room are, if a women saw me naked and was attracted to me it would be potentially a little uncomfortable or awkward but I'm reasonable assured that I'm in very little physical risk from that scenario, they are also likely to try to hide that feeling because they've been socialised as women so understand how horrible it is to be sexually objectified by a stranger especially when you're in a vulnerable situation.

I am big, height and weight wise, but I have absolutely no chance in a physical altercation with a male. Even if that male is 15 and scrawny or 80 and arthritic. They are stronger than me.

We also know that if a physical assault or sexual offence is going to be committed then it is vastly more likely that the offender will be male than female.

We also know that 1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult and 1 in 6 children have been sexually assaulted.

So it's a reasonable for women and girls to feel uncomfortable and at risk when a fully grown adult with a penis chooses to not only intrude on women's single sex spaces, but to also do it in an obnoxious, exhibitionist and overly overt manner by choosing to be fully naked rather than using a towel to cover themselves, and choosing to use the communal space rather than a cubicle.

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/

Sorry but that sounds horrific to me. How on earth do you even manage to get changed in these circumstances? So you're forced to contort yourself into a pretzel trying to get a bra on underneath a towel without it falling off?! What do you do about showers - are they mixed sex as well? How do you get from one to the other considering you have to strip off to get rid of all the chlorine? Madness.

We are living in a world where genitals does not reflect on identified sex. Women have penis’ and men have vulvas and vaginas.

We’re officially in clown world. The world is flat, black is white, apples and oranges and women have penises.

Happened in ours during a swim meet - teenage boy photographing a teenage girl. Police were called.

How do we feel about lesbian women being naked in front of teenage girls whilst getting changed in the changing room? How do we feel about gay men getting changed in front of teenage boys in the men’s changing room?

I can't speak for men and gay men, but in all my 50+ years I have never felt uncomfortable or threatened by lesbians in changing rooms and toilets (or by any other women, barring an incident in a nightclub many years ago, which was personal not sexual...). I am yet to be attacked, sexually assaulted, verbally abused, or flashed at by a lesbian (by men, on the other hand...). Remind me again how many lesbians get prosecuted for indecent exposure, or photographing girls in toilets, or sexual assault? These are overwhelmingly male crimes, and also apply to transwomen.

@CalMeKate Just to make it very clear I am not advocating men flashing women/teenagers/children their genitals in any form. A man pretending to be a transwomen to gain access to women, girls, and children is a predator and should be treated as such. Reported for criminal behaviour to the police.

That is exactly what you are advocating. And how are you the judge of which naked men in women's changing rooms are predators and which are not?

We are living in a world where genitals does not reflect on identified sex. Women have penis’ and men have vulvas and vaginas.

That presumably is your world and the world of a small minority.
It does not represent the world view of the majority of people, no matter how much the ideology is being pushed. You should be very clear on that.

A man pretending to be a transwomen to gain access to women, girls, and children is a predator and should be treated as such. Reported for criminal behaviour to the police.

Just to add to my post above, how are women supposed to know which of these men are "pretending" and which are not? Do you have a magic way of knowing the difference oh enlightened one?

I think we can assume that the world that someone who thinks a male adult being naked in a room where children are supposed to change is a land where nothing ever abusive happens. However, since they live in that world, why do they have a role in safeguarding?

Or, they live in a world where they have actively supported the creation of an untouchable group of males, like other groups of male people in the past, but is such a true believer of the propaganda produced to protect that group from criticism that they cannot see they have done this. Instead, they adhere to flawed safeguarding policies and fail massively if they are safeguarding children.

The ‘true believer’ description comes from the piousness of telling parents that their children should be schooled to address their abusers body and self with respect while their abuser abuses them. Plus the homophobic nature of how they support their failure of child safeguarding. Plus the sanctimonious posts which include posting pictures of males in revealing swimwear that are supposedly to show women that these are ‘women’ who should be in a change room with children because they have augmented breasts and long hair and supposedly are ‘passing’ or whatever where Kate tells us to check our bias and our fucking privilege.

It was such a great spontaneous demonstration of the tactics used by extremists to either convince (they must think women are fucking stupid) or shame people into believing, as they do, that a male with a penis on show in a female single sex space is ‘just a woman getting changed’.

Seriously kate, just because you have been conditioned into believing this is righteous and that you are wonderfully kind and inclusive, most mature adults can see this for what it is. And you cannot, and I suspect you never will, own you part in this. Right at this moment you believe you have the highest moral integrity, yet the reality is you have nothing to feel righteous about.

Going back to OP post about the girls comments “That when the tranniemannie is in there we use the cubicle” implies 2 things. Firstly, this is not a one off occurrence and this is happened on a number of occasions. When this, then that. Implies more than once

Which to anyone who actually was concerned with child safeguarding, would suggest that this man is well aware of op's routine and times he brings his DD'S to the gym and when they will be in the changing rooms with no parent.

Secondly, it sounds as though this is the first time OP has been made aware of this situation and I am guessing is a little surprised to
find this information out

Yes, because girls from the get go are socially conditioned to not speak out about poor male behaviour and with gender batshit rife in schools will no doubt have been told, by idiots, that these men have a 'right' to be there.

Funny how these supposedly oppressed men are now given the privilege of accessing all spaces where other men can't, based on nothing but their feelings. Zero consideration ever given to the women and children those spaces are supposed to be for.. What about their actual sex based rights and protections? No. Just pander to the poor man.

Imagine someone claiming to be involved in child safeguarding saying women can have a penis and a man can have a vagina, and that genitals are irrelevant.
Don't be ridiculous.
Only the tiny % of gender believers think this.
It also shows you have no clue about the many reasons men claim to be women.

The world hasn't changed.
You can't choose your sex.

Posting pictures of men who supposedly pass as women do not prove anything.
They are the exception, not the rule.

You know now op. Protect your girls.
Please do not let your DD's enter the changing room whilst that man is in there. It should be their safe space not his. They shouldn't have to hide because of a man who disregards their boundaries.

It is not my opinion about what makes a transwomen a women. I didn’t create the terminology or the definition of a Transwomen.

My personal opinion does not matter as to whether a women has a penis or not.

It is factually accurate in our society that there are transwomen with penis. As someone said 90% of transwomen have penises (hopefully spelt pleural penis correct this time).

OP talked about his children being young teenagers. They live in this society. This society is accepting and inclusive of transwomen and transmen. Transpeople have the right to change their passport and driving licence to reflect the gender they are. I am not saying whether I agree or disagree with this but it is factually accurate in our society. My question about what can Bannatynes do about allowing access to changing rooms relates to how they could manage this. If Bannatynes asked that you produce your passport on arrival to confirm your gender prior to going in to the changing room that would not prevent a transwomen with a penis using the changing rooms. They couldn’t ask people what genitals they have and then delegate the changing room accordingly. That would be incredible discriminatory. And again I am not stating my opinion just practical application of the facts.

Having open conversations from a young age (ideally from 2-3 years old) about “strange behaviour” is more beneficial and the children will be safer as a result.
Strange behaviour would include;

• A man intentional flashing his genitals in the changing room
• a man having an erection in the changing room
• a man touching his penis to engage in sexual activity in the changing room
• a man taking photos in the changing room (regardless whether it is a selfie or not)
• a man having a conversation with two teenage girls in the changing room
• a man pretending to be a transwomen to access women and or girls in the changing room
• etc etc

What is not strange behaviour is a transwomen getting changed in the women’s changing rooms. Which from what OP said in his original post is factually accurate.

It really does not matter what my opinion is or what I believe regarding transwomen because it isn’t up to me what happens in society. Where ever you are on the trans fence of acceptance or refusal our society is inclusive of trans people and trans rights. That is factually accurate.

I do agree that 10 years ago was a vastly different landscape. But we aren’t there any more and we all need to look at who are children are interacting with all the time. In changing rooms, in toilets and most importantly online!

Personally I would be more worried about the teenage boys and men in the gym looking inappropriately at the girls in the swimming pool, in the gym, and in the cafe. Statistically men are far more dangerous to women and girls that transwomen are.

I have to say I am a little surprised at the lack of insight in to transwomens rights on this thread.

This isn’t a yes or no situation regarding the gym changing rooms. This is a yes situation for the future.

The best we can all do is have conversations with your children about boundaries and what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour.