If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Hi Op, I think what you are doing is really admirable. I think one further thing to think about is that, even aside from the womens' rights arguments (which I happen to think are important), is it "kind" to tell people they can change sex, especially young people. I mean, if you were a surgeon or doctor who was giving drugs or performing surgery on someone, you'd want them to know the limitations, right? (If they didn't, you might expect to get sued by those with suboptimal outcomes)

Does "trans women are women, no debate" and "Emily bridges the female cyclist" really help with this?

At some point, any trans person will need to accept themselves as they are, however much surgery they have had to get to that point. Which must logically involve accepting that there are sex based limitations to their state - if you are a TW you can't get pregnant, if you are a TM, your "penis" will have minimal sensation and will have to be pumped up manually, if you are 6ft 6 with massive hands you will never pass etc etc. As you age, you may be susceptible to the illnesses of your birth sex, as modified by hormone treatment. This is why I think that those TW who do accept that they have not changed sex seem happier for understanding that what they have gone through is to get to a particular place in which they feel comfortable, for themselves, not because they need reassurance from others.

There is gathering evidence that medical transition as performed now is not making a difference to suicide outcomes in young people who transition. Unfortunately, many universities would not even permit researchers to study this, which kind of suggests that some elements of the trans community and medical profession are comfortable with experimenting on young people to further a cause.

Oh I missed the point, sorry. I do remember that now.

why 'a transwomen'? CalMeKate was using 'a women' and 'a transwomen' today as well. Smells odd.

I just want to say thank you for everyone on this thread, especially @AmaListening. I've found this topic incredibly challenging- I am a 1970s feminist and always expect myself to be on the "progressive" side of any debate. It was incredibly difficult to realise that I was on "wrong side of history on trans issues. I marched for gay liberation, rocked against racism, went to Greenham, supported our gay brothers during the AIDS crisis, campaigned for marriage reform-and then suddenly the children I brought up to be progressive liberals think I'm a bigot because I believe women only spaces are vital. This is the first discussion I've been involved with that gives off more light than heat. So I will read it carefully and thoughtfully, and hope that by the end I will have my brain in order.

Progressive liberals are anything but.

Wokesters are the most authoritarian bullies I've seen, wolves in sheep's clothing

In my ideal world we wouldn't gender stereotype, so men wouldn't feel like they had to be women because they liked "womanly" things like wearing dresses, high heels and make-up.

In any event, I do neither of the first two things, and only wear make-up for work, but I am definitely a woman. I didn't feel like I must be a boy because I liked playing with non-pink lego and climbing trees as a kid, either.

I'm always amused too that trans women never talk about getting paid less and taking on the majority of the domestic and caring responsibilities! 🤣

@PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours "Progressive liberals are anything but."

Sad that's all you took from my post. But hey ho.

There was a really good article that might interest you, I'm struggling to find it. It was about a lesbian who had come to realise that societies/social groups set up for LGB people had become dominated by heterosexual people with interesting genders or vague identifying as queer. She talked about feeling pressured to date trans women.

Reading more by Kathleen Stock "Material Girls" and Julie Bindel "Feminism for Women" might help you understand where gender critical lesbians are coming from.

I think lots of us who are gender non conforming can feel sympathetic towards girls and young women who try to identify out of womanhood. But we have the perspective to see that you can't really identify out of the reality of being female, and that you can tell gender stereotypes/expectations/sexism to fuck off without harming your body and becoming infertile.

A key misunderstanding in society at large is because trans adults claimed to have cross sex identification as children that therefore all children with cross sex identification are future trans adults so the kind thing to do is affirm them and transition them ASAP. But this is false.

There's been research into this following these children and the majority are not trans as adults. Many are gay and trying to make sense of that difference. The increase in teenage females identifying as trans also seems to include a lot of autistic girls (who also feel 'different' and can have quite rigid ideas of stereotypes as rules to follow) and traumatised girls trying to understand their dissociation and distress and seeking a solution. Add in that's become a fashionable identity amongst some groups...

Then you add in that even for the ones who would grow up to have trans identities that actually medicating them young, lying to them and pretending that living as if the opposite sex is no big deal really is horrible care that leaves them infertile, unable to orgasm, not having the psychological support they need, with riskier, more experimental surgeries and complications.

It just isn't kind at all.

Benjamin Boyce does long form indepth interviews with Detransitioners on YouTube, it's really fascinating to hear from young people themselves why they came to understand as trans, what "care" they received and how they came to detransition.

What I've found fascinating is it's not like there's just one group you can separate off from "true transexuals" there are so many different stories.

Understand themselves* as trans

Welcome to critical thinking. It does get easier the more you do it.

I haven't read the entire thread (sorry, too many pages). FWIW here's my take on the OP's question.

My opinion is the minute we start calling them trans men/women we've already conceded the battle. Simply put, there's no such thing as a transman/woman.

There are men who were dresses and lipstick, and women who grow facial hair. That's it. There's nothing deeper or more meaningful to it. Some men grow beards, others work out at grit and sawdust gyms, while others prefer to act femininely and wear high heels.

The common denominator for all those people is that they're men. Some might appear more manly than others, but that's of no relevance at all.

Ditto for so-called transmen or enbies. Some women prefer long hair and feminine looks, while others get buzz haircuts and wear denim overalls. They're all still women.

We have to get out of this mentality of referring to made-up men as transwomen or to masc women as transmen. They're just men and women, respectively.

And if a man with makeup and heels feels at risk of abuse when he uses the men's loos, well for starters that's wrong, as nobody should ever be subject to abuse because of how they dress. But in this imperfect world, you know what, they can always not wear dresses and makeup. It's a personal choice, and with that choice comes a risk. Unfortunately.

To win this war we have to pull it back to where it began. We have to refuse to recognise the words transmen/women. When someone says for example Lia Thomas is a woman, the correct response should be, "Huh?"

Feign ignorance of the word transwoman, and let the other party try to explain how Lia Thomas is a woman. It should be fun to watch.

As many other people have said before me, I think people are allowed to understand their identity and express masculinity/feminity however they wish (unfortunately I feel it's necessary to say that fetish wear should be reserved for consenting adult situations and not worn to the office/classroom). I don't think they should be harassed or discriminated against. But they also have a sex, however the wish it were the other and I don't think it does them or anyone else any good to pretend they don't or that it never matters.

But they don't get to demand everyone believe the same thing about gender identity or pretend that all the single sex services and groups set up over decades are really about gender identity not sex.

They don't get to redefine the meanings of all words from woman, lesbian, homosexual etc. and demand everyone obey their new definitions. Or compel pronouns. If you commit a sexual or violent crime reporting and court proceedings should correctly identify sex even if also stating a gender identity. Victims should not be forced to lie about their attackers sex.

Where sex matters - esp. hospitals, care settings, residential trips, toilets, changing rooms, refuges, rape services, sports, awards/inclusion measures for women, prisons etc. They ought to use the facilities for their sex.

Where sex doesn't matter e.g. all mixed sex settings, they are already accommodated whatever their beliefs. Add in a whole bucket load of extra acceptance for people who are gay, gender non conforming, disabled etc since this is my party.

I think people should be able to have same sex social groups and meetings or same gender identity groups and meetings. Because people should have freedom of association.

However in my fantasy future I'd like them to be upfront about which thing this is rather than pretending to be single sex and actually being mixed. So people can make an informed decision and so mixed sex organisations do not get funding specifically intended to help the inclusion of female people.

So if adopting mixed sex inclusion policies the Girl Guides were called the Child Guides, and the Women's Institute were the Feminine Feelings Institute that would make things much clearer.

Great post, @AbraKedavra

I don't know. I believe in religions naming themselves.
Christians, atheists, devil worshipers all have a name they call themselves. Can't go around calling them men and women with and without god or men and women with our without the devil.... there'll be offence all over the shop and so many inaccuracies.
There has to be a name for the followers of this religion which they've fully chosen for themselves.
Ttansmen, transwomen, enbies, furries, trans allies all seem to be different denominations of the trans religion...

There has to be a name for the followers of this religion which they've fully chosen for themselves.
Ttansmen, transwomen, enbies, furries, trans allies all seem to be different denominations of the trans religion...

A "trans man" should be a man who identifies as a woman.

True but they get to choose...
Christians should also be godtians because they aren't worshipping just christ.
Can't force logic or sense on religions. Just respect that others don't believe what you believe. And building that boundary did take centuries and blood with the church...

The danger of the whole issue is the impact that it has on young people - there does seem to be a trend to switch sex/gender and that is why I do not think live and let live applies in this case. I feel normalising changing your sex is wrong - instead we should be saying biology is fact but helping people to live to live as the biological sex.

Personally I'm not in favour of gender or cosmetic surgeons profiting off of people with mental health conditions whether they have gender dysphoria or are older women with OCD focused on their appearance trying to look more youthful.

I don't know the best way to reinstate medical ethics and standards into e.g. the US healthcare industry but I think we shouldn't import what's been happening over there into the NHS.

Yes adults have the freedom to make choices that they might regret in future, but we also have a public health interest in not encouraging people to do things that harm them. People don't exist in a vacuum and they may infer that because some of these medications and surgeries legally exist that they are safe and effective, well evidenced and regulated.

Certainly children shouldn't be put on this pathway being told it's the answer to their social and emotional problems.

I haven't answered the OP yet. What I would like trans people to do:

1. Where sex matters*, don't be dishonest about your sex.

2. Don't be homophobic. If someone is only attracted to one sex, accept that as valid and not 'like racism' as the head of Stonewall put it.

3. stop conflating 'female' with 'feminine', and 'male' with 'masculine'. It's perfectly possible to be one and not the other.

4. be consistent about when you mean sex and when you mean gender identity, and don't conflate them.

5. stop ignoring questions you can't answer, and attempt to answer honestly.

• • e.g. risk factors for various things, medical issues, sports, privacy, sexuality.

I find the whole 'I knew I was a boy' thing baffling. If you are a girl, with certain likes, behaviours, characteristics etc - then you are living proof that those behaviours aren't limited to the opposite sex. To assume that only boys/girls like/can do/think certain things from age 3 surely shows what a gendered society they were brought up in - and they haven't managed to realise it's not actually true.

Some people want to be the opposite sex and I don't have a problem with that, outside of where sex matters. But please call it that rather than pretending there is a set of feelings that only one sex feels and because you feel them then you 'really' are that sex. (Or gender. Which is sometimes sex, and sometimes absolutely NOT because that's transphobic, but also it is the same sometimes of course.)

You don't have to invoke this totally indefinable concept of gender identity to try and get around the fact that you want a different body because people treat different bodies differently.

I should add as well I find it odd that trans people are so enthusiastic about surgery. Surely it's a very public admission that they don't believe that e.g. men can have female bodies? What's wrong with a man having breasts - if you think that any body can contain any gender? It's almost as if there's something male about being a man. But again, it's transphobic to think that. Isn't it?

True but they get to choose...

They can call themselves what they like, I don't have to go along with it, which was the point being made by @AbraKedavra

What I got from your post, is maybe raise your kids to be critical thinkers, rather than progressive liberals.

I think you are correct with your analysis - that this lobby group’s most successful tactic was embedding the concept of “but what about trans people?” into public discourse and making it something which is accepted without question, analysis or scrutiny. That’s why you get all the “you’re denying our existence!” melodrama.

If the question instead was “but what about people who self describe as a member of the opposite sex?”, that would generate a more thoughtful and less knee-jerk range of responses. It would force policy makers to be less intellectually lazy than they have been in their dealings with and responses to these lobbyists to date.

Which means that anyone who attempts to challenge the language capture as you suggest will be subjected to a severe backlash, as these lobbyists absolutely do understand the implications, power and importance of the language changes (and accompanying policy capture) which they have ushered in.

We’ve already seen one pushback on this thread. But…what’s sauce for the goose. If males who self-describe as a member of the opposite sex get to choose their terminology, then women get to say that the word ‘woman’ is already taken, and the same for lesbians.

This has become a very interesting phenomenon, hasn’t it? At least two, maybe three studies now have shown the same pattern. That people in the 18-28 age group with some spilling into the 28-38 yr age group being identified as being the least tolerant group in society.

They believe they are the most tolerant, yet cannot even have conversations with someone with a different view. And will cut people and organisations out of their lives for holding a differing view. While claiming they are wonderfully tolerant and loving.

This is authoritarian and totaliterian in nature yet these people claim to be the opposite. It really is concerning. There are a rapidly growing list of words that now mean the opposite of
their intended meanings. This is the destabilisation of language arising from queer theory.

What surprised me though was the release of the data of a short survey done by MBM recently. That one has now shown that this same age group 18-28 (might have been up to 34year olds on this survey) have the least understanding of what sex person the terms transgender woman and trans woman refer to.

My reading of this is that this group do seem to have lost the ability to think through concepts critically and are taking their information only from social influencer style content that misrepresent and play to the bias of the desired audience. Hence the arguments that are weak not only in evidence but also logic when you actually follow that argument through analysing its robustness and veracity.

(Sorry OP to use this example) For instance, that second wave feminist lesbians were not featured amongst the small group of women who first understood the ramifications of the demands being made by male people.

The inconsistencies in the movement of those seeking to silence people, mostly women, is hugely discordant. The dissonance reaches crescendo levels. When you have a group calling themselves progressive actively silencing women from discussing their needs and clearly stating their boundaries, while valorising the group of male people who violently intimidate and threaten and sometimes physically assault those women. Those women who were rationally discussing their needs and stating their boundaries.

And then you realise these ‘progressives’ don’t even know what women believe or are saying.

They have never listened because to listen would mean they would have to confess to listening or reading the blacklisted content of a person the group has denounced as bigoted. This group has deliberately and willingly kept themselves in ignorance (by not doing the research to support their belief) to maintain their social groups.

And so the cycle continues.