I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

[betterchange]

M+S, ladies'underwear section. It's all cubicles and to be fair, nowhere does it say that it is a women-only changing room, but I think it's likely to be seen as such by most users since it's in the bra-and-knicker-selling section of the shop and there are other changing rooms elsewhere!

A woman came out of one of the changing rooms whilst I was queueing and beckoned a man in. I said, I'm sorry, I don't think you should go in there, this is for women trying on underwear. The woman queried this but I stuck to my guns and the woman behind me in the queue backed me up; the man apologised and left. (It probably helped that they sounded as though English wasn't their first language so they may not have known the "rules"! I think it was a genuine misreading/mistake on their part.)

Anyway, no harm done, but it made me think - that was easy, but if it had been a very obvious man-dressed-as-a-woman, I'm far from sure that I would have felt able to speak out.

In that situation (the man-dressed-as-woman), would anyone here have said anything?

Sorry, @user65754 I didn't express that very well. I meant an assistant could check who was in the changing rooms and warn women. Most women would not be worried about a male partner in there, as long as they know. Hearing a man's voice without knowing could trigger a few women.
Honestly I have a friend who is so sensible and never mentions what caused it, but she can't go into mixed sex changing rooms and has given up swimming. It's quite common.

It's not just a safety issue. It's about privacy and dignity too. If I have to talk to the M&S assistant in the fitting room about the fit of bras I'm trying on, cupsize etc, I don't mind if the other women in the changing room can hear. We've all got boobs

M and s is also the go to for the majority of women who are undergoing mastectomies or lumpectomies.

I had only ever been to swimming pools with single sex changing facilities until I moved to somewhere that only has mixed sex.
I have never been so uncomfortable in my life, I will only go with my mum or with my partner, I refuse to go alone. Even then I've only been twice and I've lived where I am almost 4 years now.
People can call it hysterical if they want, but I'm just not comfortable with it, and I'm not going to force myself to be.

"Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities."

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

I find it absolutely bizarre that people pretend mixed sex changing villages are traditional. Have they never been in a swimming pool built prior to 2000? For example, an old Victorian building?

Local pool is 1950s and retained its single sex provision. Purely as I think it was too expensive to do otherwise! I also think it still has women only sessions.

As has another Victorian pool that was bought by the community about 25 years ago and runs as a charity.

I haven't yet ventured into the rebooted Victorian Newcastle city baths, I think they went mixed sex for the Turkish baths though

My main experiences of issues with voyerism and real concerns about safety in mixed sex provision has been in swimming pools.

M and s is also the go to for the majority of women who are undergoing mastectomies or lumpectomies.

Absolutely, WarriorN. I'm sorry, I didn't express myself very well there by saying we've all got boobs. I meant we've all got female bodies. And that includes women with who have had surgery on their breasts and another reason for requiring the privacy and dignity of a single sex changing room.

I had a man in dress queuing behind me trying on undies on in m&s. He was saying loudly that all us girls always have to queue. I didn't take my bra off to try my bra on knowing there was a man in with us.

I do think if you really genuinely want pass as a woman you don't sing and dance and draw attention to yourself so I was safer, like with all men, he has the potential to do me harm.

I wouldn't go alone in a males loos as rightly I have been conditioned to assume its not safe to be partly dressed around strange men I don't know.

If it was tomorrow I'd have stepped aside and waited for them to try on and leave.

Oh god no, no need to say sorry. Was just adding to that point.

Until I was in that situation myself, I hadn't realised what a god send m and s is.

I still expressed myself badly.

WarriorN.

Don't be a dafty!

We shouldn't have to be giving all these reasons Ffs.

Why can't we just say no?

I was just reflecting that I hadn't properly realised how much you could view m and s bra changing rooms as a medical service, for want of a better word. I knew they do specialist bras. And I know they do fittings. And I've had help with breastfeeding bras there. It's just that bigger more sensitive health aspect, mostly something older women deal with, though not all, that so easily gets overlooked.

JL's set up isn't as nice where I am. I know there's other shops but not sure what's near me, plus m and s do click and collect

But it's not the 'sensitivities of her dad', it's her infirm mum that needs help.

I'm all against pushing back against dodgy fetishists etc but I'm not so full of myself that I'm going to expect an infirm elderly lady or a clearly sick/recovering woman to struggle on her own and risk a fall just to make some obscure point.

If the bloke is clearly assisting her in walking etc I'm not going to try and make their already difficult situation harder on the assumption that it might all be a cleverly staged trick to smuggle a man into an area that is already mixed sex. Bonkers!

Keeping men out of women's areas isn't the same as trying to harass them out of mixed sex areas which people can either choose to use or not.

I mean, would we really be applauding a male OP boasting about chasing a foreign woman out of a unisex changing area?

I think most biological males /trans women who want to try on women's clothes would avoid a situation like this and order online instead it would be traumatic for them to not have anywhere where they are accepted / to 'go'

Hmmm

This wasn't a 'mixed sex area' though. The OP said there weren't any signs but it was in the women's underwear section. The man wasn't trying to use it as a mixed sex changing room. He was in a changing room obviously provided for the use of women trying on underwear. I don't care whether it's a ruse or he's got a fetish or not. I don't want him in there a few inches away while I'm in a state of undress talking to the assistant about a very female part of my body.
If his wife genuinely needs assistance because of age or disability, not simply because he wants to give an opinion, they should be directed to a mixed sex disabled cubicle.

Ultimately the shop gets to decide though and if you don't like it you write/email to complain or go elsewhere. You don't do the equivalent of a vegan walking into a butcher's and kicking off.

M and s changing rooms have locks so you are pretty safe . I work in women's retail and often men go in the changing room. I always challenge them and ask them to leave . I have had some nasty responses but I don't care . We have curtains and most women aren't very good at pulling it across . I have seen all sorts in there so I'm sure men get an eye full ..

What I don't understand is why husbands think it's ok 🙄🙄

I doubt it. Puberty blockers actually make boys end up taller not "petite" And neither they nor hormones can alter pelvic size shape or tilt.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would you meet a lot of transexual men in life because you are lesbian in particular? I’ve only seen a few myself, and very very rarely.

😳🤢

I doubt a person looking like this would be stopped and refused entry into a woman’s changing cubicle in M and S.

Let’s stop pretending that all trans women look like beefy men in wigs.

In principle I agree that women are entitled to female only spaces.

Providing individual changing cubicles with lockable doors seems the most suitable solution for shops, in the current climate.

Women have a safe space to enter and the shops are not facing discrimination charges on the trans issue.

Staff cannot be expected to police members of the public on their sex if it is not clear from their appearance.

Providing individual changing cubicles with lockable doors seems the most suitable solution for shops, in the current climate.

Women have a safe space to enter and the shops are not facing discrimination charges on the trans issue.

only if you consider so called “Primark porn” to be no issue.

Women have a safe space to enter and the shops are not facing discrimination charges on the trans issue.

what “discrimination charges” do you think they can be up for? There is no legal right for men to be allowed into women’s changing rooms. If anything it’s the opposite but shops are cowtowing to the trans lobby.

Ok let’s go with “accusations of discrimination” instead of discrimination charges.

I just wanted to make a point about the difficulty in policing a womens changing area when it may be difficult to discern who is male or female.

This is a woman with short hair for example who could be confused with a man.