I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

[betterchange]

M+S, ladies'underwear section. It's all cubicles and to be fair, nowhere does it say that it is a women-only changing room, but I think it's likely to be seen as such by most users since it's in the bra-and-knicker-selling section of the shop and there are other changing rooms elsewhere!

A woman came out of one of the changing rooms whilst I was queueing and beckoned a man in. I said, I'm sorry, I don't think you should go in there, this is for women trying on underwear. The woman queried this but I stuck to my guns and the woman behind me in the queue backed me up; the man apologised and left. (It probably helped that they sounded as though English wasn't their first language so they may not have known the "rules"! I think it was a genuine misreading/mistake on their part.)

Anyway, no harm done, but it made me think - that was easy, but if it had been a very obvious man-dressed-as-a-woman, I'm far from sure that I would have felt able to speak out.

In that situation (the man-dressed-as-woman), would anyone here have said anything?

I'm a bit torn on this, I think if you want a second opinion you'd ideally bring a female friend with you- I'm thinking along the lines if she'd recently had a surgery and wasn't confident in wearing new underwear or needed help getting changed (severe arthritis would make this really difficult for my mum for example but she'd be more comfortable with my dad than a female sales assistant but she'd never have in a changing room and the man would rather die than go in). But I don't see anyone thinking it's a good idea to have a man in a woman's changing room. My dh would stand outside and I'd come out if I wanted his opinion (obviously not just in underwear). Anne Summers in our city has their changing rooms as self contained cubicles on the main shop floor and they have peek holes controlled from the inside for this purpose which is a better way to address it I think.

I would challenge a man dressed as a man in that scenario, but I wouldn't challenge someone perceived as being a trans woman because I've seen cases where security have been involved and the person wasn't trans at all just a woman with more masculine features and I have female friends who have been perceived as being trans before when they aren't. They've as much right to go about their daily life minding their business as the rest of us. If anyone was being deliberately creepy, oggling or using their phone suspiciously then I'd pass it on to the staff to deal with. The last time I was in m&s the sales assistant in the lingere dept was male which surprised me. He was perfectly professional but I was hesitant about asking about bra fittings which is why I'd come in in the first place. I'd like to imagine the other sales assistant who was female would have carried those out.

nor do I remember meeting single sex shop areas in any other country (Europe/NorthAm).
I'm pretty sure USA has (or had, anyway) single-sex cubicles. Many Americans are very puritanical about nudity, even amongst those of the same sex, and even with children, and will do all sorts of gymnastics under a towel to get dressed in a communal changing room after swimming: I've seen them do it and I was boggled.

For real? You want to laugh at "fat" or "ugly" women? 😬🤔

A person’s sex is not easily determined on sight

Really? How often have you made a mistake about it.

I've had to ask thousands - probably 10s of thousands - of strangers to undress (HCP!). I have never ever been surprised by their sex when they took their clothes off.

That was my immediate thought too. Pretty misogynistic to leap to the conclusion that she is stupid or immature.

They look like men on wigs

The younger generations- boys starting as teens on hormone blockers at early puberty easily pass for women.
My 22 year old son has a friend who transitioned when he was young. He ( she) looks and talks like a very petite feminine woman and is actually very beautiful

I'm a bit torn on this, I think if you want a second opinion you'd ideally bring a female friend with you
Why? It's not a mystical skill dependent on XX chromosome.

I'm pretty sure USA has (or had, anyway) single-sex cubicles.
It's possible that I just don't remember it from the US, that I just complied and forgot. Or it might differ between places. I'm more sure about Canada, as I've been there longer and more recently.

Yet again making a man's behaviour the fault of a woman.

I went to tk maxx recently and, even though they have men’s on one side and women’s on the other, two young and slightly rowdy men were on the women’s side trying on clothes and talking/hanging around in the middle of the aisle. I’m not sure why they were on the women’s side tbh. It surprised me how uncomfortable and nervous I felt, and I wish the staff had directed them to the other side but maybe they felt they couldn’t? I wished I’d said something myself, so well done you!

There are a few dozen such kids in the entire country. We don't have to change the entire social order, or pretend that we're suddenly unable to tell men from women, because of them.

I was in House of Fraser and one of the womans clothing section had a changing area. Cubicles behind curtains and then an outside area with the big mirror. An older bloke was sat in the area obviously with his missus in one of the cubicles. It was really uncomfortable coming out to look at yourself in the mirror with a bloke sat there. not that I thought he was pervy but that it was male gaze. That slightly judgy thing men do. as women we know we aren't wearing the dress we are trying with holey socks or greying bra but there he was ... I said nothing. always wish I had.

Oh early puberty blockers, where young effeminate boys, who 80% of the time grow up to be happy gay men are chemically castrated , made unable to orgasm, shot full of female hormones that wreak havoc on a male body and then suffer from all kinds of conditions as they grow older.

It's child abuse and it's starting to be stopped in many countries.

This thread honestly makes me feel despair. So far we've had more than one disabled woman who needs her DP's assistance wondering what on earth they should do, women laughing at other women for being "fat and ugly", the suggestion that men who help women shopping are abusive, and women urging each other to challenge anyone who doesn't look feminine enough. All of this in changing rooms that are not even women's changing rooms. You have no idea what's going on in someone else's life. There are many legitimate reasons why someone might want their male partner with them. To add an example to those already listed, I have a relative who is almost blind, her DH helps her with all her shopping.

If it’s anything like our nearest M&S - large out of town kind - then they have abolished women’s changing rooms completely. They have three changing rooms labelled as follows:

• Men” (because they still get their own space don’t they?!)
• “Lingerie” - what used to be the women’s changing rooms, but that wasn’t inclusive enough of the men who get their kicks out of trying on and w@nking over women’s underwear. Or those who just like to intimidate women by their presence and to co-opt women’s spaces:
• “Try it on” - unisex changing room.

So to sum up: men can use all the changing rooms, but women aren’t allowed to change anywhere without men present.

Slow clap for M & S.

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I think most men would feel very uncomfortable in a woman’s changing area. I know my husband wouldn’t go anywhere near them.
Yes lingerie is women only. The attendant in John Lewis asked me if I wanted to come back later as there was a man in there. He was helping his wife who was blind. Yes these were curtained off cubicles.

Sorry, your post isn't clear - do you mean they were in the middle of the women's clothing aisle, not the changing room?
Just talking and hanging around on the "women's clothes' side? If so, what's wrong with that?

I’m not endorsing puberty blockers - just pointing out that many transsexuals from younger generations do not look like “men in wigs”

I don’t see how changing areas can enforce a “no transexual” rule based on appearance.

For real? That sounds like Mike Pence who won’t have a meeting alone with a woman or something like that. Men have been buying underwear for women for a long time.

I was very recently in an M&S changing room (near the lingerie section) when the member of staff politely prevented a man from entering telling him "I'm afraid you can't go in as there are women trying on underwear". I expect she'll now have to attend some kind of "awareness" training?!

Easy;
it's Men are required to change in the Men's changing rooms.
Even precious petite delicate flowers like your friend's son is a male.

I don't give a damn about male transexuals and their wants.

To honestly I really don't see the issue, if you get changed within the cubicle then why would you feel exposed or uncomfortable, he's there with his partner not prowling on his own.
My OH will often come to the male area and give me the nod on clothes I try on.

Yes, but again you're ignoring when someone is saying that you can't always tell, even if you're insistent "I can always tell because men in wigs!"
No. No you can't. That's the point you keep missing.

I am fascinated that many PPs are happily trivialising women's views on the inappropriateness of men in women's fitting areas but none of them will take issue with the Secrets, lies and the GRA thread where they would have to do a bit of mental heavy lifting.

Sorry I can't provide a link to the other thread - a restriction of using the app.

Are you for real?

M+S, ladies'underwear section. It's all cubicles and to be fair, nowhere does it say that it is a women-only changing room, but I think it's likely to be seen as such by most users since it's in the bra-and-knicker-selling section of the shop and there are other changing rooms elsewhere!

Until about 5 minutes ago, those changing rooms were labelled WOMEN, and no man would have dreamed of entering. Well, some men would have dreamed of entering the women's changing rooms, but they would have been kept out, both by social convention and by the M&S's policy.

Even now, with all labelling removed, why should any man even think of entering the changing room within the women's lingerie section, where women are likely to be in a state of undress?

If a man wants to try on women's lingerie, there is no reason why he shouldn't. But I wonder why he doesn't do so in the changing rooms situated within menswear?