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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer Radio 5 "A woman is an Adult female"

241 replies

fromorbit · 26/07/2023 11:25

Starmer says "a woman is an adult female, let's clear that one up."

Here the words of reality - 1.27:40 Radio 5
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001p101

Not so difficult was it now was it. So where is apology to Rosie, Tonia and everyone in Labour Women's Declaration?

Let them attend conference.

Also lets hear what Scottish and Welsh Labour think. Explain if they differ and why.

Nicky Campbell - NatWest's boss resigns over leak row, and Labour's Keir Starmer takes your calls - BBC Sounds

NatWest's boss resigns over leak row, and Labour's Keir Starmer takes your calls from 10.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001p101

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
anotherside · 26/07/2023 15:01

@HerAvatar
He's a self-serving weasel, saying what he thinks will win him the election, nothing more, nothing less

Same as every leader since circa 1990 then, with the exception of Corbyn and possibly Theresa May - who interestingly were both slated across the political spectrum as the worst leaders in their respective party’s recent history. Unfortunately FPTP rewards bullshitters who sell happy lies. Most people don’t want to hear hard solutions.

Mummyoflittledragon · 26/07/2023 15:06

I can no longer stand his voice. It really grates on me. I cannot vote for labour with him in charge. The issue with him potentially resigning is that a more hardline candidate may be sought. So I suppose the bottom line is that I cannot vote for labour full stop.

SmartHome · 26/07/2023 15:14

Yep, same here. I've voted Labour in every GE I was old enough for but no more. They're liars, just like Conservatives. The only difference is they lie about ideology and human rights instead of the Economy and profit. At least the Tories are pretty honest about what they stand for. This lot claim to be socialists that represent the common man - just as long as not an actual female I guess.

I too can't take him seriously, weasally voice, constantly obfuscating and avoiding - he used the word 'reflect on' about 12 times the other day in an interview about the seat they lost instead of just being honest and owning it. I can't stand people like that, gas lighting is second nature to them.

The Tories must be wetting themselves. The next GE should be an opposition shoe in. But it won't be.

RebelliousCow · 26/07/2023 15:16

Poor old Starmer. He can't do anything right.

Thing is Jones will still vote for him at the end of the day.

Beowulfa · 26/07/2023 15:21

So Starmer manages to piss off women, AND Jones/Pink News/MRW. Is there a special prize for that (a colourful flag maybe)?

Glad the media are waking up and holding their feet to the fire. This is a great issue for a proper journalist to get their teeth into.

EdithStourton · 26/07/2023 15:24

"Why, trans people will ask, can they still not be trusted when they say who they are? And why do non-binary people not get a mention?" ( RMW)
Let me see...
Isla Bryson (pink leggings rapey man, in case you've forgotten)
Sarah Jane Baker (punch a TERF)
Lia Thomas (strolling about with his tackle out, after stealing women's medals)
The Anne person (strolling about amongst teenaged girls getting changed)
That's just off the top of my head. There are LOTS more.

Safeguarding, Robin: safeguarding. The policy that means that an elderly granny isn't allowed to hear readers in the school that her grandchild attends and where her daughter works without a DBS check.

You shouldn't need to have this explained to you. Indeed, I am 100% it has already been explained to you. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALA is not a good look.

WinterTrees · 26/07/2023 15:31

I CBA to read RMW's nonsense (sorry), but why would non-binary people need to be mentioned when the question was 'what is a woman?'

(The reason I CBA to read it is because in the wake of Bryson, Dolatowski, Amy George etc etc it's so transparently fucking obvious why trans identifying males can't be trusted that I'm rolling my eyes too much to focus.)

Duckskitbank · 26/07/2023 15:34

Too late, dickhead.

RoyalCorgi · 26/07/2023 15:41

I find it almost funny that Starmer is such an inept liar. Obviously all politicians lie, or at least all the senior ones. But some are better at it than others. All Starmer has done on this issue is to flip-flop endlessly while pretending that his current view is one he's always held - as if we haven't noticed that not so long ago he was telling us that some women had penises and that it was very wrong of Rosie Duffield to claim that only women could have a cervix.

bellinisurge · 26/07/2023 15:47

He needs to do a Mumsnet chat on this.

dcbc1234 · 26/07/2023 16:00

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/07/2023 12:12

He's never asked why he supports children being told their bodies are flawed and that drugs and surgery can fix them? Does he agree with Cass & what's the party position on the experimental medical treatment of children with mental health problems that they've been advocating for so long?

Come on journalists - make him lay it all out.

I've said it before that I have never seen Starmer nor any Labour MP mention the Cass Review at all. They have just ignored it whilst at the same time maintaining TWAW and in Starmer's case doing Pink News 'Hostage Videos'.
If politics were not in thrall to 'gender identity ideology', any sane UK opposition party would have been making hay with all the gender woo mess the Tories have presided over. Instead the Tories have listened to voters legitimate concerns and tried to row things back starting with Truss/Johnson not implementing May's 'self id' nonsense which I don't think was trumpeted as a policy on election leaflets, so no one really even considered its implications for their vote at the time.

TheDogsMother · 26/07/2023 16:00

He's still not being straight about this though is he ? Tweaking of the words - safe spaces not single sex spaces. This man is a lawyer so knows about accurate use of language. I don't trust this lot not the completely backtrack if they win the next GE.

AlisonDonut · 26/07/2023 16:01

He knows it is a single sex exemption. Not a safe space.

Now why oh why would he fudge that up?

fromorbit · 26/07/2023 16:02

bellinisurge · 26/07/2023 15:47

He needs to do a Mumsnet chat on this.

Starmer and other Labour bigwigs will be on Mumsnet sometime in the next 18 months as the election arrives.

So start think of the most difficult/embarrassing questions you can.

My favourite right now is:

Now Labour policy has shifted to show they were right will you apologise to Rosie Duffield and other Labour members who knew what a woman was and stood up for their rights.

OP posts:
ResisterRex · 26/07/2023 16:16

He's deploying the same strategy with ULEZ. Wants Khan to "reflect on the roll-out" says it's not a simple yes/no. Well, it is for those working nights shifts in low paid jobs.

You can't lawyer your way out of questions with fudges and tricky wording, all the time and expect people not to tire of it. Have an opinion. It seems to be the most basic we expect of politicians - being for or against a policy.

SmartHome · 26/07/2023 16:17

Why did you say, and I quote "Some women have penises" and "the phrase 'only women have a cervix' is something that shouldn't be said, it's not right" when you are now saying "a woman is an adult female, let's clear that one up."? Which position a) do you personally believe and b) is Labour policy?

Lottapianos · 26/07/2023 16:20

'Why did you say, and I quote "Some women have penises" and "the phrase 'only women have a cervix' is something that shouldn't be said, it's not right" when you are now saying "a woman is an adult female, let's clear that one up."'

Well exactly. They've made themselves look like absolute muppets and I have zero sympathy

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/07/2023 16:25

AlisonDonut · 26/07/2023 16:01

He knows it is a single sex exemption. Not a safe space.

Now why oh why would he fudge that up?

He knows its single sex exception, not safe space exemptions.

Maya Forstater
"Given how much misinformation there has been about the Equality Act and the provisions for single sex services, I don't think it is accidental that they have been spun as "exemptions" (hard, complex, rare) instead of "exceptions" (easy, simple, common)."

If true, he wants to replace the rights of women and girls to have single sex spaces as a matter of routine, to woman and girls having to justify needing safe spaces.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/07/2023 16:26

I meant to say maya tweeted about it the other day.

IwantToRetire · 26/07/2023 16:28

Also from the "i"

As Keir Starmer tries to cool the trans issue, his ‘flip-flop’ reputation risks hotting up

In some ways, self-ID and the issue of protections for single-sex spaces are very separate issues. Because places like women’s refuges can legally refuse trans women access in certain circumstances, to some groups it doesn’t really matter how the ID process works.

Indeed, Labour’s 2019 manifesto treated the two as distinct. Its “Women” section declared it would “ensure that the single-sex-based exemptions contained in the Equality Act 2010 are understood and fully enforced in service provision. Its “LGBT+” section stated “Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people”.

However, Labour policymakers now clearly see a link, fearing that services run by volunteers would face legal and practical difficulty in excluding trans people in the absence of a medical diagnosis. Dodds said retaining that requirement would uphold “legitimacy of applications and confidence in the system”.

Unfortunately, the muted way in which Labour unveiled this latest shift in policy prompted suspicions that it wasn’t exactly comfortable with the whole issue. Dodds made the announcement via a Twitter thread and a newspaper article, but no shadow minister has faced questions on its detailed implications.

More difficult for Labour is the way Starmer himself has changed position on trans issues, not least because his “flip flops” are already being lined up by the Tories as a key weapon for the next election.

Others believe that while Starmer is right to say the voters’ real priorities are the economy and public services, and trans issues are not top of their list, failing to answer the question when asked risks losing valuable older women voters.

A shadow minister tells me that the issue comes up unsolicited in some marginals with small majorities. “I had it unprompted three times in 10 conversations on the doorstep: ‘you guys don’t know what a woman is’.”

Quite a long article but I have never seen the "i" even reflect the GC view, so even if it only comes up in a political OpEd as an actual issue that is a breakthrough.

Full text at https://inews.co.uk/opinion/keir-starmer-cool-trans-issue-flip-flop-reputation-2504708 or by post link into archive.ph

As Keir Starmer tries to cool the trans issue, his ‘flip-flop’ reputation risks hotting up

Labour’s policy on women’s and trans rights is clearer, but the trail of confusion worries Starmer's own MPs

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/keir-starmer-cool-trans-issue-flip-flop-reputation-2504708

Hepwo · 26/07/2023 16:36

http://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/1409/reader/reader.html?social#!preferred/0/package/1409/pub/1409/page/70/article/NaN

Keir Starmer owes Rosie Duffield an apology
Labour might have shifted its policy on trans, but the treatment of Left-wing feminists can’t be forgotten

Madeline Grant

There are a great many scenarios in which you wouldn’t want to hear from Sir Keir Starmer. Chewing your ear off in a smoking area at 3am about his time as Director of Public Prosecutions. Or in the middle of a corporate ice-breaker in which he somehow manages to drop in the fact that his father was a toolmaker. Or even giving a speech from the steps of Downing Street. But there is one area where I really would like to hear from the Leader of the Opposition. Namely, to apologise to Rosie Duffield and so many other women in his party, who’ve been vilified for expressing an opinion that is now official Labour policy.
In reversing its policy on gender self-ID, as unveiled by shadow women and equalities secretary Anneliese Dodds this week, Labour seems to be belatedly acknowledging that biological sex is not some random construct invented by bigots, but a manifestation of physical reality that remains vitally relevant in how women are treated and spaces managed.
The facts haven’t changed – merely the politics. After the SNP’s self-ID debacle, public opinion has shifted on this issue, so much that Labour felt compelled to follow suit. But the party’s pivot comes embarrassingly late in the day; following the closure of the Tavistock clinic, the exposure of Stonewall, the evolving scandal of the charity Mermaids and its failed legal bid to strip the gay and lesbian group LGB Alliance of its charitable status.
Any of these moments might have – indeed, ought to have – prompted self-reflection. But it is only now, having spent years presiding over an environment in which gender-critical feminists were routinely hounded, that Labour proposes policies those feminists supported – and without a twitch of contrition. Are Starmer and Dodds really to be congratulated for finally reading the room?
Duffield has endured a hellish few years. Popular and capable, she remains Labour’s only Kent MP, even increasing her majority in 2019 in an area of the country which has traditionally been true-blue to the core. Under normal circumstances, this would surely win her promotion to the shadow front bench. Yet Duffield remains as isolated within her party as she is by electoral geography.
Matthew Doyle, Labour’s head of communications, was recently caught on camera mocking Duffield for spending too much time “hanging out with J K Rowling” – as though issues like sex-based rights were frivolous hobby-horses rather than fundamental matters of concern to the public.
The boorish behaviour is especially noticeable on the floor of the Commons. While Duffield spoke in a debate about self-ID in Scotland, several colleagues visibly scoffed or heckled her. Ben Bradshaw, who likes to present himself as one of the “grown-ups in the room” bellowed “Rubbish!” as Duffield – a domestic abuse survivor – expressed fears about the future of women’s refuges and other single-sex spaces.
She is not the only victim of such unparliamentary outbursts. Earlier this year, a puce-faced Lloyd Russell-Moyle crossed the floor, in an apparent attempt to intimidate the Tory MP Miriam Cates, as she voiced similar concerns about unisex toilets. Starmer has never directly denounced any of this, only condemning uncivil behaviour in the broadest, most non-committal terms.
Duffield was even forced to miss the 2021 Brighton Labour Party conference amid death threats, and later spoke of Labour HQ’s cowardly, flabby response. “It is obsessive harassment. Neither the Labour Party nor either the former or current Leader or the Whips’ Office have done anything at all to stop it, to offer me any support, help or legal assistance.”
At last year’s Tory Party conference, I had the pleasure of meeting the indomitable Bev Jackson and Kate Harris, co-founders of LGB Alliance. If you haven’t heard of them, Bev and Kate are a pair of lesbian campaigners, who are, if some sections of the Left are to be believed, the devil incarnate. I didn’t see them in Liverpool, however, because the LGB Alliance had been denied a stall at the Labour Party conference, along with the Labour Women’s Declaration and several other feminist groups.
This fact alone should be far more embarrassing to the Left than it is; just as it ought to be that Duffield finds more support from Tory ministers such as Alister Jack and Kemi Badenoch than on her own benches, or that Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman receive a warmer welcome in the pages of the Daily Telegraph or Sunday Times than they now would in The Guardian.
In all of this, stated and revealed preferences matter. In public, Starmer calls for a “respectful debate”. In private, he fails to discipline those who intimidate gender-critical feminists. Meanwhile, Labour remains a paid-up member of Stonewall; Starmer shared a promo video featuring him and Stonewall chair Iain Anderson just this month.
Labour’s concession to biological reality may be a step in the right direction – and not a moment too soon. But if and when that speech from No 10 ever does happen, can it really be trusted to stay the course on this (or anything else), when it’s taken so long to grow even a scintilla of a spine? Perhaps it’s a case of, as Margaret Thatcher said: “If you want something said, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.”

The Telegraph

http://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/1409/reader/reader.html?social=#!preferred/0/package/1409/pub/1409/page/70/article/NaN

RoyalCorgi · 26/07/2023 16:42

Great piece from Madeline Grant. I'll believe Labour have really changed on this issue when they leave Stonewall.

fromorbit · 26/07/2023 16:44

Another interview with Labour front bencher. Some good questions but answers are evasive all following new line.

Rosie Duffeild has "Great Respect" we need to hear from all sides in debate. well why didn't you defend her in public over last years then?

Labour MP Nick Thomas-Symonds on Labour's new positions on sex & gender, BBC R4 Today 26th July 2023

I

Labour MP Nick Thomas-Symonds on Labour's new positions on sex & gender, BBC R4 Today 26th July 2023

R4 Today 26th July: "We have to learn lessons from what happened in Scotland and there is no purpose at all to going ahead with a change that doesn't command...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvTo9k49VyU

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 26/07/2023 16:47

EdithStourton · 26/07/2023 15:24

"Why, trans people will ask, can they still not be trusted when they say who they are? And why do non-binary people not get a mention?" ( RMW)
Let me see...
Isla Bryson (pink leggings rapey man, in case you've forgotten)
Sarah Jane Baker (punch a TERF)
Lia Thomas (strolling about with his tackle out, after stealing women's medals)
The Anne person (strolling about amongst teenaged girls getting changed)
That's just off the top of my head. There are LOTS more.

Safeguarding, Robin: safeguarding. The policy that means that an elderly granny isn't allowed to hear readers in the school that her grandchild attends and where her daughter works without a DBS check.

You shouldn't need to have this explained to you. Indeed, I am 100% it has already been explained to you. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALA is not a good look.

And let's not even get onto those trans people that don't have a GRC, know women find men in the women's toilets/changing rooms uncomfortable/unacceptable but use them anyway!

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