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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer Radio 5 "A woman is an Adult female"

241 replies

fromorbit · 26/07/2023 11:25

Starmer says "a woman is an adult female, let's clear that one up."

Here the words of reality - 1.27:40 Radio 5
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001p101

Not so difficult was it now was it. So where is apology to Rosie, Tonia and everyone in Labour Women's Declaration?

Let them attend conference.

Also lets hear what Scottish and Welsh Labour think. Explain if they differ and why.

Nicky Campbell - NatWest's boss resigns over leak row, and Labour's Keir Starmer takes your calls - BBC Sounds

NatWest's boss resigns over leak row, and Labour's Keir Starmer takes your calls from 10.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001p101

OP posts:
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EpicChaos · 26/07/2023 16:48

I think anyone that's still prepared to see him voted in as PM, needs their bumps reading, to be honest.
He has stood by and allowed Rosie to be treat like something on the sole of his shoe, he took no action over Moyles disgraceful behaviour re: Miriam Cates.
He has seen that other women have been assaulted, lost jobs.
Children have been brainwashed and subject to egregious and shameful materials and behaviour in schools and public places and not one word has he said! Not one!
Now he thinks we believe him when he tries to wangle his way back into womens good books!
Well i'm sure as hell not buying it. I hope KJK wipes the floor with him, like an old rag, at the hustings next election!

IwantToRetire · 26/07/2023 16:48

But it is only now, having spent years presiding over an environment in which gender-critical feminists were routinely hounded, that Labour proposes policies those feminists supported – and without a twitch of contrition. Are Starmer and Dodds really to be congratulated for finally reading the room?

Well I am not sure they have read the room, but are just desparately back peddling, I think this is all dodgy kite flying.

And sad that yet again have to rely on the Telegraph to really spell it out.

RebelliousCow · 26/07/2023 16:54

I note an conspicuous absence of discussion about this apparent U-turn on the twitter feeds of the most prominent Labour TRA MPs.

The most anyone has done is link to the article by Robin Moira White in the Guardian which chides Labour to 'do better'.

BaronMunchausen · 26/07/2023 16:55

WeeBisom · 26/07/2023 11:42

The commenters below the like on the guardian are either indifferent (the world is burning , who cares), or are raging and bringing up all the old classics - “a sign on the door won’t stop predators from getting in the bathroom!”, “are we going to do genital checks ?” , “transwomen are the most vulnerable , straight men are the real danger”.

In my experience even the mildest statement of dissent from TRA mantras and gotchas is removed pronto by the citizen moderators.

RealityFan · 26/07/2023 16:58

Hepwo · 26/07/2023 16:36

http://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/1409/reader/reader.html?social#!preferred/0/package/1409/pub/1409/page/70/article/NaN

Keir Starmer owes Rosie Duffield an apology
Labour might have shifted its policy on trans, but the treatment of Left-wing feminists can’t be forgotten

Madeline Grant

There are a great many scenarios in which you wouldn’t want to hear from Sir Keir Starmer. Chewing your ear off in a smoking area at 3am about his time as Director of Public Prosecutions. Or in the middle of a corporate ice-breaker in which he somehow manages to drop in the fact that his father was a toolmaker. Or even giving a speech from the steps of Downing Street. But there is one area where I really would like to hear from the Leader of the Opposition. Namely, to apologise to Rosie Duffield and so many other women in his party, who’ve been vilified for expressing an opinion that is now official Labour policy.
In reversing its policy on gender self-ID, as unveiled by shadow women and equalities secretary Anneliese Dodds this week, Labour seems to be belatedly acknowledging that biological sex is not some random construct invented by bigots, but a manifestation of physical reality that remains vitally relevant in how women are treated and spaces managed.
The facts haven’t changed – merely the politics. After the SNP’s self-ID debacle, public opinion has shifted on this issue, so much that Labour felt compelled to follow suit. But the party’s pivot comes embarrassingly late in the day; following the closure of the Tavistock clinic, the exposure of Stonewall, the evolving scandal of the charity Mermaids and its failed legal bid to strip the gay and lesbian group LGB Alliance of its charitable status.
Any of these moments might have – indeed, ought to have – prompted self-reflection. But it is only now, having spent years presiding over an environment in which gender-critical feminists were routinely hounded, that Labour proposes policies those feminists supported – and without a twitch of contrition. Are Starmer and Dodds really to be congratulated for finally reading the room?
Duffield has endured a hellish few years. Popular and capable, she remains Labour’s only Kent MP, even increasing her majority in 2019 in an area of the country which has traditionally been true-blue to the core. Under normal circumstances, this would surely win her promotion to the shadow front bench. Yet Duffield remains as isolated within her party as she is by electoral geography.
Matthew Doyle, Labour’s head of communications, was recently caught on camera mocking Duffield for spending too much time “hanging out with J K Rowling” – as though issues like sex-based rights were frivolous hobby-horses rather than fundamental matters of concern to the public.
The boorish behaviour is especially noticeable on the floor of the Commons. While Duffield spoke in a debate about self-ID in Scotland, several colleagues visibly scoffed or heckled her. Ben Bradshaw, who likes to present himself as one of the “grown-ups in the room” bellowed “Rubbish!” as Duffield – a domestic abuse survivor – expressed fears about the future of women’s refuges and other single-sex spaces.
She is not the only victim of such unparliamentary outbursts. Earlier this year, a puce-faced Lloyd Russell-Moyle crossed the floor, in an apparent attempt to intimidate the Tory MP Miriam Cates, as she voiced similar concerns about unisex toilets. Starmer has never directly denounced any of this, only condemning uncivil behaviour in the broadest, most non-committal terms.
Duffield was even forced to miss the 2021 Brighton Labour Party conference amid death threats, and later spoke of Labour HQ’s cowardly, flabby response. “It is obsessive harassment. Neither the Labour Party nor either the former or current Leader or the Whips’ Office have done anything at all to stop it, to offer me any support, help or legal assistance.”
At last year’s Tory Party conference, I had the pleasure of meeting the indomitable Bev Jackson and Kate Harris, co-founders of LGB Alliance. If you haven’t heard of them, Bev and Kate are a pair of lesbian campaigners, who are, if some sections of the Left are to be believed, the devil incarnate. I didn’t see them in Liverpool, however, because the LGB Alliance had been denied a stall at the Labour Party conference, along with the Labour Women’s Declaration and several other feminist groups.
This fact alone should be far more embarrassing to the Left than it is; just as it ought to be that Duffield finds more support from Tory ministers such as Alister Jack and Kemi Badenoch than on her own benches, or that Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman receive a warmer welcome in the pages of the Daily Telegraph or Sunday Times than they now would in The Guardian.
In all of this, stated and revealed preferences matter. In public, Starmer calls for a “respectful debate”. In private, he fails to discipline those who intimidate gender-critical feminists. Meanwhile, Labour remains a paid-up member of Stonewall; Starmer shared a promo video featuring him and Stonewall chair Iain Anderson just this month.
Labour’s concession to biological reality may be a step in the right direction – and not a moment too soon. But if and when that speech from No 10 ever does happen, can it really be trusted to stay the course on this (or anything else), when it’s taken so long to grow even a scintilla of a spine? Perhaps it’s a case of, as Margaret Thatcher said: “If you want something said, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.”

Hits. Nail. On. Head.

DudeItsPrawns · 26/07/2023 17:01

"A woman is an adult female, let's clear that one up"

He means the ones with penises though, doesn't he. The special ones he thinks should be in our "safe spaces."

He has a open goal but rather than kicking it in he's swimming in treacle instead.

BaronMunchausen · 26/07/2023 17:05

"A woman is an adult female"
While I suspect this includes any male who says he's an adult female, at least Starmer is now using 'transphobic' hate speech (or is it a 'dogwhistle'?).

Hot on the heels of Dodds using the equally hateful and unsayable phrase "biological woman".

AlisonDonut · 26/07/2023 17:09

Because places like women’s refuges can legally refuse trans women access in certain circumstances, to some groups it doesn’t really matter how the ID process works.

Can they when they risk threats, doxxing, violence and their funding being cut?

Hepwo · 26/07/2023 17:13

BaronMunchausen · 26/07/2023 17:05

"A woman is an adult female"
While I suspect this includes any male who says he's an adult female, at least Starmer is now using 'transphobic' hate speech (or is it a 'dogwhistle'?).

Hot on the heels of Dodds using the equally hateful and unsayable phrase "biological woman".

It's all madness. They have let the madness get the better of them.

SirVixofVixHall · 26/07/2023 17:14

LizzieSiddal · 26/07/2023 11:29

If it hadn’t been for all the years of gaslighting, expulsions, women losing their jobs and being attacked, I might have welcomed this.

This.
Also , I can’t believe I am having to type this but he needs to define what he means by “female”.

RealityFan · 26/07/2023 17:16

Haha, Starmer is the one who'll be the one to clear things up? Sorry, but aren't you the one who's been obfuscating from the very first time you opened your gob on the subject?

Maybe, just maybe, you could sit in a room calmly with Rosie and the LWD, and let them clear things for you.

literalviolence · 26/07/2023 17:17

The loathsome little bigot needs to publicly and unreservedly apologise to Rosie Duffield, say that people can never change sex even if they change gender and send the likes of David Lammy and Emily Thornberry to be educated about their biases (leading to their public apologies) before he will get my vote. He's still trying to keep men's rights activists happy. No person who tries to appease male supremacists is worthy of my vote.

BaronMunchausen · 26/07/2023 17:26

Ah, seems both "adult female" and "biological female" are both anti-trans 'dogwhistles'.

www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/26/keir-starmer-labour-trans-adult-female/

Froodwithatowel · 26/07/2023 18:47

Are there any words left to talk about the issues for women without them being a transphobic dogwhistle?

That phrase merely means 'bloody inconvenient topic we can't argue with and will make people realise problems we don't want them to be aware of'. Like 'transphobic' now merely means in any way displeasing a trans person regardless of reasonability.

SunnyEgg · 26/07/2023 18:57

Froodwithatowel · 26/07/2023 18:47

Are there any words left to talk about the issues for women without them being a transphobic dogwhistle?

That phrase merely means 'bloody inconvenient topic we can't argue with and will make people realise problems we don't want them to be aware of'. Like 'transphobic' now merely means in any way displeasing a trans person regardless of reasonability.

Are there any words left to talk about the issues for women without them being a transphobic dogwhistle?

Men do not like any words to exclude them so no.

Our sex based words are all too exclusive

I don’t know how people are bending to this. It’s incredible

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 26/07/2023 19:03

Eluned Morgan, MS Labour Wales thinks transwomen are women.

teawamutu · 26/07/2023 20:06

No, we're not to be allowed any of our own words.

Starmer Radio 5 "A woman is an Adult female"
ArabeIIaScott · 26/07/2023 20:11

Floisme · 26/07/2023 13:26

I don't object to back pedalling or changing your mind. I imagine most of us have done that - it's how we win.
But I do expect clarity. If this really is a change of direction then he needs to explain what's changed, and stop pretending this is what they've said all along. And I suggest he drop me the patronising 'let's clear this up' tone, which really does not encourage my trust,

Yes, exactly.

Single SEX exemptions, single sex spaces.

'Safe spaces' is just more Labour woo bollocks.

HermioneWeasley · 26/07/2023 20:18

I won’t believe they are remotely sincere unless and until he

  • apologises to Rosie Duffield
  • asks Sadiq Khan to reinstate Joan Smith
  • meets with Labour women’s declaration.
  • invites back all thr women expelled for knowing women don’t have penises

I’d also like him to apologise for saying “only women have a cervix isn’t right, it’s something that shouldn’t be said” - the fucking nerve.

SunnyEgg · 26/07/2023 20:23

teawamutu · 26/07/2023 20:06

No, we're not to be allowed any of our own words.

Men get all the man words and all the female words too

I mean wtf

dimorphism · 26/07/2023 20:24

I’d also like him to apologise for saying “only women have a cervix isn’t right, it’s something that shouldn’t be said

Concur, and quite apart from wanting to maintain some semblance of women's and children's rights, I wouldn't trust someone who parrots this anti-science anti-biology bunkum to run the NHS.

Rainbowshit · 26/07/2023 20:43

Deeds not words Keir.

Where is your apology to Rosie Duffield? Will you now meet with the women's declaration?

I'll only Believe it when you actually show us you mean bio females and not gender addled males.

vegantubbycustard · 26/07/2023 20:44

WeeBisom · 26/07/2023 11:42

The commenters below the like on the guardian are either indifferent (the world is burning , who cares), or are raging and bringing up all the old classics - “a sign on the door won’t stop predators from getting in the bathroom!”, “are we going to do genital checks ?” , “transwomen are the most vulnerable , straight men are the real danger”.

My OH is a stalwart of the Grauniad comment section and has been banging the GC drum for years. For his comments to get through moderation, they need to be very carefully worded. Even if his comments aren't outright deleted, they're still targeted by others trotting out TRA bingo fallacies.

He said there's been a bit of a turning point recently, and his comments today managed to receive comparatively good upvotes and other commenters backing him up among the woo, which has basically never happened.

JacquelinePot · 26/07/2023 20:50

I'm all for offering golden bridges to those who realise that they got it wrong BUT this ain't that.

Starmer must think we all came down in the last shower if he thinks we can't see what he's doing, here.

teawamutu · 26/07/2023 21:08

The red line - the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM - is a gesture of support and apology to Rosie Duffield.

If she thinks he's sincere, I might listen. Might