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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Entitled male refused access to female changing area (despite wearing skirt)

788 replies

ACatCalledPushka · 23/07/2023 22:00

Well done to the hotel staff. ‘trans ‘woman’ given key to the unisex changing room instead of the female changing room ‘trans woman’ not happy.

https://twitter.com/anneicoombes/status/1683090524641566721?s=46&t=5tHsrgY5T97exTqeFD4LWg

https://twitter.com/anneicoombes/status/1683090524641566721?s=46&t=5tHsrgY5T97exTqeFD4LWg

OP posts:
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52
Xenia · 26/07/2023 12:56

It sounds like this trans person needs to give way more (ie be more female) rather than be a standard bearer for trans rights in female spaces. If there is unisex available that seems the kindest one for this person to use.

Froodwithatowel · 26/07/2023 12:57

The problem there in essence is a person who is obviously from their social media postings, not very well.

However this is part of the cohort of male people insisting on their right to use and control all the spaces, and women can give ground, be scolded and guilted into giving ground, or just plain excluded.

Women do not matter and are lesser in this philosophy: law has to be made to enforce fairness to both sexes. You will never be able to negotiate it or get all the male people involved in this cohort to accept that women should have any say in it that presents a boundary to them.

forgotmyusername1 · 26/07/2023 13:01

Annaishere · 26/07/2023 12:11

@DarkDayforMN i did also concede Anne shouldn’t be in changing rooms with young girls

and in the school holidays and weekends there are very likely to be children in there

SerafinasGoose · 26/07/2023 13:02

Instructing the women to say nothing and don't stare if they believe someone is in their toilets and changing rooms that they feel shouldn't be there! How fucking demeaning to women and girls.

💯%. There are posters on the walls in many of these institutions to this effect. 'Protect them from harm' is one of the admonitions contained on these nasty little public documents.

As though protection of others always automatically comes under women's remit. Unless, of course, we're protecting our daughters in the female changing areas from would-be predators. Or protecting ourselves if we have religious objections or have been sexually assualted in the past. Of course that is impermissible. In that circumstance, we are bigots. We are not able to offer a 'balanced' discussion.

As to protecting them from harm, what exactly do they expect a woman to do against a determined male assailant who is, by virtue of his biological sex, bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than we are?

How is it somehow women's responsibility to protect trans women from other men, when they are the ones turning our facilities into a mixed sex free-for-all in the first place? How on earth does even the most indoctrinated double-thinker square that particular circle?

Who are the ones suggesting 'TERFs' should be kerb-stomped and decapitated, sending them rape and death threats, chucking cans of tomato soup over them, telling them they should 'die in a grease fire?'

And how many feminists are responding in kind to this aggressive verbal and threatening behaviour in kind? A cursory search should satisfy any lingering doubters' curiosity on that point.

There's your 'balance'.

ZeldaFighter · 26/07/2023 13:03

Has anyone reported the safeguarding concerns of Anne, a trans-identifed male, being allowed into the female changing room, with underage girls present?

ZeldaFighter · 26/07/2023 13:07

Just for reference, I helped out once as a volunteer at the primary school swimming baths. I was asked to go in the girls' changing room to supervise as the other helper was a dad. He was not allowed in to the girls changing room, despite volunteering because his daughter was there and swimming that day, because he was male and to protect the other girls, all 10 and under. I didn't supervise my son- the dad was in with the boys and as a woman, I was in with the girls. Long hair and swim hats are a nightmare!

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 26/07/2023 13:17

'cervix' is Latin for 'neck'. The cervix is this case being the neck of the womb.

Quite how a person could have a cervix without ever having had a womb is a great puzzle to me. Or, how would a surgeon construct a cervix? From what?

Well, precisely. If we do India the courtesy of assuming that India is somehow telling the truth, we are unavoidably left with a veritable mountain of biological, medical and scientific reality and possibility to overcome. So much that one might be led to conclude that India may just not be being completely honest with us (or also with Indiaself, who knows)...

babayhaga · 26/07/2023 13:22

Motorina · 23/07/2023 22:02

Passes perfectly… you just can’t tell.

But that's not the point, their chrosomes are..... of which he can't accept.

So it should be law all transgenders can't use female/male changing spaces. I don't care if their dick or tits are cut of, they are still xx or xy.

SequentialAnalyst · 26/07/2023 13:24

@Annaishere

Firstly I would advise you as a matter of anonymity not to use your own name as part of your username.

Secondly I would suggest you read some of the threads on Chat, AIBU and Relationships where you will find women older than you describing their current lives. While you are reading, imagine what it's like to be them.

Just a feeling, but I think you are trying to work out the logic behind all this gender theory. I'm afraid that is like trying to untangle spaghetti.

HootyMcBooby76 · 26/07/2023 13:25

The problem is that a male person will NEVER get it. They are just unable to see beyond their male socialisation how this affects women and girls.

There is a a TW on Youtube, I won't "out" them here myself but I'm sure they have popped up in a lot of your suggestions, who is generally known for being "reasonable" in that they refuse to call women "cis" and often stand up for women and their rights.
However, their recent video has them defending their "right" to be in a public bathroom, that they won't "concede" to women in this respect, that they "belong" in there, that they "a not a threat" etc.
They just CANNOT see the issue from a female point of view BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FEMALE!
They only started "living as a woman" a few years ago and yet they firmly believe they have a right to use female spaces, no debate.
You will never get through to these men.

They are unable to see it through the lens of womanhood, because they are not women.

Froodwithatowel · 26/07/2023 13:30

It's been seen on threads here where well known 'reasonable' TW have listened politely to women and then said their executive decision is they will do what works for them and what they wish, regardless of impact.

When faced with that this excludes women with disabilities, faiths, cultures, trauma, belief systems from ANY ACCESS AT ALL so that they can have their preferred choice of spaces? They shrug. They do not care. All that matters is the validation they want. Women are not real humans in their eyes and inclusion is only about them.

They are happy to exclude and harm women in their own interests. That is the bottom line of this.

This person had two options. They wished to control and own all three. That excludes women. This person does not care, they just wish to do what they want, and they expect to be indulged in this or they will tantrum.

And demand that the staff member be 'trained' to subordinate women to men.

Spidey66 · 26/07/2023 13:33

I think a unisex changing room is the perfect compromise in this situation. A man in women’s clothing doesn’t make them a woman. Just as a woman wearing trousers does not make them men.

HootyMcBooby76 · 26/07/2023 13:44

Spidey66 · 26/07/2023 13:33

I think a unisex changing room is the perfect compromise in this situation. A man in women’s clothing doesn’t make them a woman. Just as a woman wearing trousers does not make them men.

It's been suggested and rejected. TW don't get the validation from a unisex space. Many go out of their way to find a specific female space.
It's the reason why third spaces for trans people would also not work in any meaningful way.
If "TW are women" is the mantra, then TW "belong" in female spaces.

BreatheAndFocus · 26/07/2023 13:45

Annaishere · 26/07/2023 12:40

I think this is what stops me getting involved in this issue at all. It’s completely overwhelming

No, it’s not if you stop and think logically, use some empathy and use your imagination.

Logical: toilets and changing rooms are divided by sex not clothing or length of hair. Why is this? Answer: it’s to protect women and girls’ safety, privacy and dignity.

Empathy: even if you’d be happy with Anne in your changing room, it surely to god doesn’t take much thought or empathy to understand that many women won’t be happy. It’s not up to you to give away their rights to safety, privacy and dignity. Imagine how triggering it could be for someone who’s been sexually assaulted, just as one example.

Imagination: you seem to be reflexively saying TW in female spaces are fine, but I think you’re saying this to ‘be kind’ and then pretending to yourself that you don’t know how you’d feel with an intact male in a female changing room with you. Bollocks! Of course you do! Let me vouch for my brother. He’s a 6ft tall, very muscly, lovely man and unthreatening. You’re telling me you’d be happy to strip off in front of him?? Or would you only be happy if his hair was a bit longer, maybe?? It’s all utterly nonsensical and ridiculous.

I am sick to {very rude word} of the simpering halfwits on Twitter and elsewhere trying to give away my rights. You can all get stuffed - and if you want a changing room with male people in it then go and change in a Unisex one. Female facilities are for people who are biologically female. It doesn’t matter what male people wear, if they’re gay, if they’re 102yrs old, if they’re really lovely. They are male and the female facilities aren’t for them.

Good men stay out so bad men stand out - as true as it’s ever been.

PriamFarrl · 26/07/2023 14:00

Good men stay out so bad men stand out - as true as it’s ever been.

Any decent person who has a penis knows that their penis can be seen as a threat and they they, as a penis owner, can also be seen as a threat. They could be the loveliest, kindest person but the simple act of having a penis means that you can be perceived as a threat. And women know this because damn near all of us has been assaulted by a penis at some point in our lives.

All decent men recognise this, and although they would never entertain attacking anyone, they understand the fear it will instil in many women. Therefore they don’t put themselves into positions where non consenting women will either see them naked or be naked themselves.

Catchasingmewithspiders · 26/07/2023 14:08

Annaishere · 26/07/2023 12:11

@DarkDayforMN i did also concede Anne shouldn’t be in changing rooms with young girls

So if Anne shouldnt be in a changing room with teenage girls, but Anne was correct to demand the key for the womens changing rooms at the hotel spa then that only leaves the option of teenage girls (and women who quite rightly want changing spaces to be single sex) unable to use the women's changing rooms.

Except for cool girls of course 🙄

Ohyoudodoyou · 26/07/2023 14:25

He has been with a female partner for over 30 years. He has used male facilities for most of his life.
We're all happy to budge over for you without question, without listening to our own instincts as to why you and so many other men would want to suddenly and so desperately want to be in intimate spaces with us. This has nothing to do with the damage 'no debate' has done to women and girl's rights, no sirree.
I often wonder what happens on a family day out to the pool/spa/gym if daughters and granddaughters of men such as 'Anne' suddenly finding themselves taking their clothes off next to their naked father/grandfather in a changing room.

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 26/07/2023 14:40

It's been suggested and rejected. TW don't get the validation from a unisex space. Many go out of their way to find a specific female space.
It's the reason why third spaces for trans people would also not work in any meaningful way.
If "TW are women" is the mantra, then TW "belong" in female spaces.

It's undeniably an aggressive act, as it can only succeed when unsuspecting women and girls are forced to be their uncomfortable and unwilling facilitators.

In principle, it's a bit like when councils open up 'art walls' in parks, in an attempt to concentrate the destruction of graffiti vandals - decent people who have always fancied a go at being artistic take the opportunity; but the vandals usually show no interest at all, because the thrill of upsetting people who have no say in the matter is now gone.

Nanna50 · 26/07/2023 14:43

I am booked into St Paul’s Sheffield next month (long standing booking) I will be using the pool and spa and I am relieved to know they take this single sex space seriously. Has anyone received a reply to the emails sent?

SerafinasGoose · 26/07/2023 14:49

Nanna50 · 26/07/2023 14:43

I am booked into St Paul’s Sheffield next month (long standing booking) I will be using the pool and spa and I am relieved to know they take this single sex space seriously. Has anyone received a reply to the emails sent?

I sincerely hope the response of the staff member was not an inadvertent 'blunder', which is how these issues are normally framed, and it really was a common-sense measure to preserve the comfort and dignity of women as well as trans people. It would be a very refreshing change if this were so.

And that the whole situation, in view of the subsequent shitstorm and 'Anne's' regular presence at swimming events, won't descend into the usual self-flagellating apologism.

Also very interested to hear the hotel's response.

tryingtobeagoodhuman · 26/07/2023 15:16

Annaishere · 26/07/2023 11:33

Just you get a sense about these things as they happen don’t you

I don't tend to look around the changing room much as I'm doing the awkward shuffle to get dressed under my towel. But pretty sure if I looked up and saw a naked male in the women's changing room, my spidey senses would be tingling...

NotNowGertrude · 26/07/2023 15:27

HootyMcBooby76 · 26/07/2023 13:25

The problem is that a male person will NEVER get it. They are just unable to see beyond their male socialisation how this affects women and girls.

There is a a TW on Youtube, I won't "out" them here myself but I'm sure they have popped up in a lot of your suggestions, who is generally known for being "reasonable" in that they refuse to call women "cis" and often stand up for women and their rights.
However, their recent video has them defending their "right" to be in a public bathroom, that they won't "concede" to women in this respect, that they "belong" in there, that they "a not a threat" etc.
They just CANNOT see the issue from a female point of view BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FEMALE!
They only started "living as a woman" a few years ago and yet they firmly believe they have a right to use female spaces, no debate.
You will never get through to these men.

They are unable to see it through the lens of womanhood, because they are not women.

Exactly! I refuse to be told how I am meant to feel about this issue by a man. I have spent my whole life as a woman, been through all sorts of issues, I KNOW how it feels to have felt like a second class citizen my whole life in education, giving birth & in the workplace

The only people who should be making decisions about this are women themselves

A man would NEVER understand this

25sheets · 26/07/2023 16:03

Chersfrozenface · 26/07/2023 12:51

'cervix' is Latin for 'neck'. The cervix is this case being the neck of the womb.

Quite how a person could have a cervix without ever having had a womb is a great puzzle to me. Or, how would a surgeon construct a cervix? From what?

I don't care whether or not "anne" has had his bits cut off. He's still a man invading our spaces. Keep out "anne".

Chersfrozenface · 26/07/2023 16:11

25sheets · 26/07/2023 16:03

I don't care whether or not "anne" has had his bits cut off. He's still a man invading our spaces. Keep out "anne".

Exactly.

Although my musings were in response to a mention of the claim by the person now known as India Willoughby to have a cervix. This person was born male and has never had a womb.

Pocketfullofdogtreats · 26/07/2023 16:19

Message of support sent to the Mercure.

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