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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

This is outrageous - medical paper argues that wanting healthy, undeformed babies should be "queered"

190 replies

Sidaway · 18/07/2023 08:38

So shocked I'm beyond words. I read on Twitter this morning that a paper, in a mainstream medical journal published by Elsevier, says:

"The authors argue that “gendered” pregnancy care is too focused on helping women have healthy babies, and that it might be okay for transmen to continue taking testosterone during pregnancy despite the known health risks to the fetus and effects on its normal development. The desire for “normal fetal outcomes,” according to the authors, is rooted in a problematic desire “to protect their offspring from becoming anything other than ‘normal’” and “reflect historical and ongoing social practices for creating ‘ideal’ and normative bodies."

https://twitter.com/babybeginner/status/1681087794998030337
https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house

The queer lobby must really, really hate children.

What did Elsevier think they were doing by publishing this? They should be called out for this very hard.

https://twitter.com/babybeginner/status/1681087794998030337

OP posts:
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Greaterthanthesumoftheparts · 18/07/2023 08:39

Can you share the link to the paper on Elsevier rather than the link to twitter?

teawamutu · 18/07/2023 08:40

This is sociopathic.

'Knowingly risk bringing babies with potentially painful and life-shortening disabilities into the world so individuals don't have to stop taking drugs which fuel their wishful thinking.'

FoodFann · 18/07/2023 08:42

I feel physically sick.

PurpleWhiteandGreen · 18/07/2023 08:42

www.realityslaststand.com/p/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house

Thisismynewusername1 · 18/07/2023 08:43

What did Elsevier think they were doing by publishing this? They should be called out for this very hard.

they have published a research paper. If it meets the journal’s standards then there is no reason it should not be published.

better this information is in the public domain than behind closed doors. You can’t challenge research you don’t know about it.

I think they’ve done the right thing publishing. Gives other researchers chance to argue.

OldCrone · 18/07/2023 08:45

I think this is the paper. Sally Hines is one of the authors.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667321523000811?via%3Dihub

JayAlfredPrufrock · 18/07/2023 08:47

Will this madness never end?

VikingVolva · 18/07/2023 08:49

Well, unless you're going to give the fetus rights, that limits what can be done to the uterine environment, then these choices are on a par with many other substances - prescribed or otherwise - that are used in pregnancy.

potniatheron · 18/07/2023 08:50

The more extreme reaches of the US fat acceptance movement started this sociopathy.

There are a number of extremely obese (BMI index of 50 and above) influencers and academics who argue that 'health' is a social construct and a capitalist white privileged concept. They argue that it should not matter if one's health and even one's mobility is adversely affected by one's weight because too much emphasis is placed on being healthy and able-bodied, concepts which need 'dismantling' (often an alternate word for 'queering').

There should be a clear line between compassion and acceptance for diability, weight issues, etc, and an active embrace of either as a desirable state for otherwise healthy able-bodies people.

Of course we should see more people with disabilities in the media (I'm on the fence about extreme obesity). But we should not have academics saying that we should strive to achieve disability in people, epsecially children, who otherwise are not at risk.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 18/07/2023 08:51

Meanwhile, over in the normie land, many pregnant women agonise over having a single glass of fizz at a wedding and burst into tears when the breakfast eggs they ordered in an cafe are served runny.

Original poster
Sidaway · 18/07/2023 08:59

Thisismynewusername1 · 18/07/2023 08:43

What did Elsevier think they were doing by publishing this? They should be called out for this very hard.

they have published a research paper. If it meets the journal’s standards then there is no reason it should not be published.

better this information is in the public domain than behind closed doors. You can’t challenge research you don’t know about it.

I think they’ve done the right thing publishing. Gives other researchers chance to argue.

It does somewhat fail on the ethics front, though. I feel it's an attempt to normalise this kind of thing in the medical profession, crouching it in respectable, academic language. Publish in an academic journal and hope the public don't notice.

Well, the public have noticed.

But you're right in a way, get their hidden agenda out in the open, get it discussed.

OP posts:
Alcemeg · 18/07/2023 09:09

@potniatheron is correct - just at a quick glance, the last author listed is a Senior Fellow of the "Centre for Fat Liberation and Scholarship" ...

But hey, they seem ideally qualified to comment on pregnancy outcomes: "their doctoral thesis, 'British Indie Music in the 1990s: Public Spheres, Media and Exclusion', concerned the gendered construction of artists in the music press during the Britpop era."

Helleofabore · 18/07/2023 09:12

It is remarkable isn’t it, how all this commentary highlights the outcomes that are desired by this group. Always the individual. Never the infant, the family or society as a whole.

It is all about the individual.

Imagine the children of this group in the future. Will they be able to take their mothers and breastfeeding fathers to court over these decisions ?

Crouton19 · 18/07/2023 09:13

FoodFann · 18/07/2023 08:42

I feel physically sick.

Same. I havent clicked the links but please please let this be hyperbole and not the way things are heading 😔

PermanentTemporary · 18/07/2023 09:15

That bunch are close to psychopathic in their attempts to frame normal human responses as weird outliers. It is not positive eugenics to want a healthy baby, it just isn't. And I notice remarkably little attempt to back up that incendiary statement.

Can they fuck off away from women with PCOS? Can they just do that? Though at least they do confirm the reality that 'elevated testosterone' in women with PCOS is at most about half of the very lowest levels for men. Those very low levels for men are in some health care systems considered to require treatment.

Also can they FUCK OFF from referring to any hormone treatment of any type as HRT? There is no way on this earth that giving a woman so much testosterone that she has male levels (Jesus, imagine it, twice the very highest levels a woman with PCOS would have) is any kind of 'HRT'.

Also it is very clear that trans people want to have healthy kids for the child's sake like anyone else, that transmen advise each other to stop testosterone in pregnancy. But I'd question how well the woman who was asking for a blood test on her baby to check testosterone levels was, to see if she could continue testosterone while breastfeeding. Has she been in the room when her baby has blood taken? I have. It's fucking awful. I'm glad the GP refused.

Helleofabore · 18/07/2023 09:15

Crouton19 · 18/07/2023 09:13

Same. I havent clicked the links but please please let this be hyperbole and not the way things are heading 😔

Show quote history

No. Sorry. This has been a long running discussion. Some female people simply cannot put their child first even to stop Testosterone for the duration of pregnancy.

PermanentTemporary · 18/07/2023 09:17

Also no attempt to engage with the ethical issues that are the reasons why the historically scary and genuinely racist and colonialist examples of experimenting on pregnant women aren't done any more.

RoyalCorgi · 18/07/2023 09:21

OldCrone · 18/07/2023 08:45

I think this is the paper. Sally Hines is one of the authors.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667321523000811?via%3Dihub

Behold my shocked face.

OooohAhhhh · 18/07/2023 09:24

And they dared to tell us not to eat fucking eggs whilst pregnant!!

Rainbowshit · 18/07/2023 09:24

The desire for “normal fetal outcomes,” according to the authors, is rooted in a problematic desire “to protect their offspring from becoming anything other than ‘normal’”

This is astonishing. It's not about babies being "normal", it's about doing everything you can to not knowingly give your child long lasting health challenges throughout life.

Do any of the authors actually have children?!

Nonibaloni · 18/07/2023 09:25

I’m treading very carefully here but will probably be deleted. There is a fetishisation of disabilities which I think comes of wanting to be more “special” and having a (understandable) desire for a simple medical explanation for not feeling good. I am positive there are difficulties exist but diagnosing whatever buzzword is trending isn’t helpful. People with genuine disabilities can get a bit sick of the amazing hearts and flowers chat when they are struggling to have their needs met day to day.

I imagine this would extend to having a disabled child, hearts and flowers and aren’t you brave. Last person who told me god didn’t give me more than I can handle almost met god in person to ask (joke no actual violence was done). It smacks of not really living in the real world with the rest of us. I would genuinely give my life to cure my child’s disability.

potniatheron · 18/07/2023 09:26

There is a 'trans man' v active on tik tok - Exulansic has a few videos on her. She boasts of taking testosterone for most of her pregnancy as didn't realise she could get pregnant on it. Anyways, her videos are chilling - she speaks in very dismissive terms of her baby daughter (maybe PND?) and is prioritising 'transgender surgeries' over her baby's health, and if going into $ tens of thousands debt for those surgeries.

The most worrying thing to me is the baby - the woman talks about (and mocks) the baby's unfocussed eyes and floppiness (baby is about 6 months now). Baby often heard crying in another room during the videos - has a very strange, almost cat like monotonous mewl. I don't know if that's a red flag for anything but she doesn't sound like my babies did at that age. Or any babies I've ever met, really.