Ginny - an update

[idontknowwhattosay23]

Massive apologies for the delay in an update. It's been tricky to know how to word it so that I don't get into trouble or have to ask for it to be taken down again. Plus I've been so depressed with the situation I haven't really known what to say.

I won't be able to post the full story as before so really this is only for the benefit of those that read the last (now deleted) thread and wondered what happened / can remember the details.

The meeting went ahead as planned, although with the massive twist that it wasn't actually just myself and "Ginny" but was turned into a whole office meeting, which turned into just giving Ginny a platform to talk about her life as a trans woman (all 6 months of it) and how she is constantly objectified by men, sexually harassed and cat called and suffers far more than any cis woman and as such, deserves (and needs so she doesn't harm herself) the support and cooperation of everyone in the office, especially other women. No, I'm not joking.

The tampon / being in the women's toilet issue was brushed under the carpet as quickly as possible and explained to us as a complex matter of dysphoria that we couldn't possibly grasp and was not to be spoken about again. We were then informed that female sanitary products would be provided by management in ALL toilets, men's women's and the disabled toilets to avoid any future "misunderstanding". I was asked if I wanted to apologise for my outburst and make a fresh start with Ginny, I did so because as I said in the last thread, I really need this job at the moment. I'm so disappointed in myself for doing so and feel gross. But I couldn't do anything else. I want to thank all those that said to just suck it up and apologise, it saved me my job 100% no question about it.

Overall it was bordering humiliating for all involved, we were spoken to like children and patronised beyond belief. Ginny has been given a new desk set up right by the bosses office, best view, newest computer and a client list that even people who have been there 10+ years wouldn't usually get a look in on and have been working hard to secure for a long time... myself and two other women have been relocated to the back office. Apparently absolutely unrelated incidents, based on "the continuing restructure of company operations to maximise productivity and output". Two men have handed in their notice, again entirely unrelated.... (I can't say much, please put the pieces together yourselves ❤️)

I'm speaking now because frankly I'm dreading Monday, as in physically feel crap and absolutely can't face going in, but for now I have to. I'm actively looking for another job and have had my 3 weeks holiday approved from mid-July so I just need to get through a week and a half and I'm free of the nonsense for a bit to regroup and figure out what I do next.

It's no understatement to say I am utterly baffled as to why there is such massive special treatment for Ginny, considering the huge mistakes they have made since starting and the constant drama. Current theories floated by colleagues suggest either the boss believes that this is legally how trans people need to be treated in the workplace and is entirely uneducated in it, thus airing massively on the side of caution and has pushed inclusivity so far he's excluded everyone else. And another theory to do with crushes that I couldn't possibly repeat.

So there we have it. I'm sorry it took a while to update, there is plenty more happening that I just can't really share at the moment. But when I can I will.

WORIADS bracelet, that's a great idea.

OK. Your boss knew the problem was with G., but chose to deal with the problem by restricting everyone's entry to the women's loo instead of confronting G. About what amounts to sexual harassment.

Unbelievable. Or rather, un fucking believable.

Best of luck on Friday.

Absolutely this! All best wishes to OP for handling a horrendous situation so bravely, but this is also the most entertaining thread in a while. It's up there with cutted-up pears. 😂 Can't wait for the next update.

Really sorry you're going through this OP, it sounds horrendous. Many years ago I had an awful time in a job I loved because of a nasty, petty bully. I know how much situations like this can affect your health. Please take strength from all the support you have here.

But fuck me this thread is glorious! I'm very excited for the premier of the video!

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Omg that's brilliant. Go tunnocks and boiled.

I don't really know if it is worth pointing this out, since the boss may rely on the common idea that Ginny is in some legal sense a woman, but under the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992, employees must be provided with single sex toilets, unless each toilet is lockable from the inside:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20/made.

The regulations also make provisions about the number of toilets that must be made available, depending on the number of employees. Assuming that there is more than one toilet in the room that is now 'one-at-a-time' access, the boss has effectively reduced the number of toilets for women to just one. Yhat may be fine or not fine, depending on te number of women.

(If you look at the HSE guidance on this it does qualify these requirements with 'where possible', but I'm certain that this relates to workplaces where the provision of facilities is logistically very hard (eg festival employees), not to a bog standard office)

It also strikes me that unless it is a temporary short-term measure, the 'one at a time' rule for the women's toilet may amount to sex discrimination, since presumably men are able to use their toilet area in the manner for which it was designed.

Sorry, I expressed the first legal requirement ridiculously badly. Obv each toilet is lockable from the inside. The point is that each 'sanitary convenience' must be a separate room lockable from the inside. I take that to mean the entire facility -- including wash baisin, hand-drying, etc must be separrate and lockable. The individual cublcles with simply a toilet aren't, in themselves, a sanitary convenience.

Prob best if I just quote the legislation:
sanitary conveniences shall not be suitable unless ... separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.

You dont address men following women into the female toilets by saying 'only one person in the toilets at a time'.

So his actions currently are:
Mitigating against males taking female hygiene products bought by the staff by taking away their female hygiene products and moving the women to a back office
Mitigating against a male sexually harassing females by only allowing one female member of staff to use the toilet at a time
Making a female staff member apologise for telling a male that he cannot use the female hygiene products by allowing the male to train the females, video this training, and humiliating the female by making her apologise in a team meeting.
Not providing single sex toilets in the first place.

Is there anything else OP?

Is there more than one cubicle in the loos? I’m going to presume not if you’re a relatively small workplace and this sign is seen as a solution. Because the practicalities of enforcing this is ridiculous - you’re going to have to go inside to see if it’s occupied to start with.

Head in the sand, spineless management. It’s a pet hate of mine ever since early in my career when flexitime working was withdrawn from a department of over one hundred because a couple of people were clocking each other in and out.

Number one priority is keeping your job. Number 2 is trying to ensure Ginny behaves. The recording of her voice clearly worked as the boss realised what Ginny was saying to the other women so the sign on the toilet - only one person at once worked.

As someone said above about what seems to be Ginny getting off on being girly at work is right " As ginny doesnt do it with the men ginny is using the women in the office as unconsenting props in his fantasy of 'girlhood'. I "

Like massive fake breasts person in the school in Canada there is no need for any of this. A trans person can j ust have normal sized breasts or talk normally to other women but instead the ones who do this want to engage in a kind of fetish/sexualising at work thing. This of course is how many men have been since the dawn of time from all those in the press currently to many others (and a few women but nothing like as many). So it is no surprise to women. In a sense the prove their maleness by how they behave when trying to be women.

I hope Ginny starts behaving better at work and people can just go to work to work. The boss is having a hard time too as Ginny is probably building up to expensive court action against him about "bullying at work" and people not speaking to Ginny. Glad I don't have employees.

Hmm.. I wonder if a voice note of Ginny in boy mode and Ginny in girl mode might focus your bosses mind? Ideally a male colleague should be the one to point this out..

I know everyone is aware, but I'd just like to add a WTAF about anyone talking to someone who is already in a toilet cubicle and actually in the middle of doing those things we do in toilet cubicles.

I have never ever had anyone try to talk to me in this way. Completely out of order.

That’s an excellent idea. Boss might not have a real idea of how Ginny behaves when only women are there. Does Ginny’s demeanour suddenly change if a man walks past Ginny in Giggling Girl Mode?

I’m not sure of the legalities of recording voice notes to show just the boss but he did accept your colleague’s recording of toilet harassment so hopefully that means it won’t be an issue to do it again?

Tr.ue could be evidence of bullying..

Maybe head down and get the hell out of there is the best approach after all.

It's interesting in terms of bullying. Ginny's behaviour in interrupting a woman on the loo to discuss Ginny's fantasy use of a tampon with the women being asked to apologise for her response IN PUBLIC. Add to that the other woman's recording of Ginny harassing women when they go to the loo with the boss's response of punishing the women by restricting access to the loos could be grounds for a claim of constructive dismissal? Along with all the other issues. While I've no doubt that it won't be the women heading for the courts, the boss is digging himself into a major pit by failing to deal with matters impartially.

Collate the evidence, present it to ACAS, and ask them to intervene without naming anyone. It looks like a hostile environment for female employees, and the 'solutions' offered by the boss are making things worse for female staff.

ACAS don’t intervene in non TU matters

The sign on the door reminds me of somewhere I worked. The boss's own secretary spent too much time surfing the net on work time. Instead of addressing it with her he sent emails to the whole department reminding everyone that there was no personal Internet use in work time. But it didn't work so he just sent more emails sounding more stern with capitals. I expect he could see her computer screen as he was typing the emails to the whole department - 'you are all reminded that there should be NO unauthorised use of the Internet...' etc.

OP your boss is a numpty. I'm sorry.

I feel for the new recruits too. From what you say your company probably has a reputation as a good place to work with a decent boss and team spirit... oh dear.

If ginny sounds sensible in front of men it might be that they can do a good job for clients, & may use the professional persona not the ditsy one even for female clients, so a massive problem from that point of view might not be around the corner.

I didn't see the first thread but thanks for this one. I know others have advised deleting, and that was my thought too, but I guess you have thought that through.

Good luck OP! You are doing really well in an intolerably difficult situation.

Good point above about not talking to someone on the toilet. Men might stand next to each other having conversations but in cubicles women need privacy and no one chatting.

"as a man" I can say we avoid eye contact and do not talk to each other in the loo. There is a complex series of unwritten rules about where you can stand and which urinal to use, if someone is already in there.

Bez, thanks for that. I don't go into men's toilets so just assumed it was like on films where sometimes you see them side by side chatting. May be it is the same in reverse - the trans person has just seem films with girls on nights out drunk in pub loos chatting and thinks that is the norm for women.

I've chatted and helped with zips in loos, but only with close friends and family members. Can't imagine doing that with someone I didn't know.

My toilet trips are always non-verbal, although I do make eye contact and smile at women I meet in the hand-washing area.

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