'Trans 4 times as likely to be victims of violent crimes'

[WhisperingAutistic]

Just having a bit of a do with my 20 year old DS and he hit me with that.

Is there data that shows otherwise? My Google skills are not pulling up much.

Cheers

Four times as likely as who? useless statement unless he says what he's comparing trans attacks to as opposed to attacks on non-trans and where these attacks take place.

And what sort of violent crimes? beating up? misgendering? looking at them funny?

It's not up to you to provide data to disprove it, it's for him to provide data that does.

What evidential data has he provided to prove it’s true?

Kathleen Stock's Material Girls includes stats about this. I can't remember the details, but it's bollocks, basically.

Exactly, four times as much as what?

Have trans relative. Subject to near constant abuse and has arson attacks on their house. I don't think being trans is something you do just because you fancy it, you become a target for the dregs of society, people filled with hate wanting someone to vent it on. It's horrific.

A good lesson to learn when debating is to be able to provide a reference for any factual claims like this. I'd reject his claim until he provides evidence to back it up, including the crucial comparator class of people.

Reminds me of the 'more trans are murdered than other people' claim. Turns out the figures were based on Brazil, where about 90% of them end up working as sex workers and hence at greater danger of violence.

I would ask 4 times as likely as who? Otherwise the statistic is meaningless. There is some interesting sex based data you can dig in to. If he says transwomen v women, say perhaps, though there doesn't seem to be concrete evidence for that in the UK, and people noticing what sex you are (euphemistically called misgendering) and asking you to leave a female facility because you are of the male sex is not a violent crime. Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes in public spaces than women are generally, so could be a male thing. Being male puts you at a higher risk of certain types of assault and of being murdered (outside the home - in a domestic setting, women are harmed far more than men are).

Office of national statistics is a good starting point. I would direct him there and tell him to find evidence to back up his claim. ONS will definitely confirm that the majority of those who commit violent crimes and murders are male. I have found it helpful to confront young men with those statistics, as they often don't realise just how big the difference is (number of men in prison v number of women in prison is also an eye opener).

Also, males or females? That's important. Males both suffer and cause higher incidence rates of violence than females, so comparing "transwomen" to women will show both being higher.

And then what do you do with that information? It's no justification for men in women's spaces.

You don't separate women from men because they suffer more violence than men, it's because men cause far more violence. The male/female separation works because you remove the males causing 95%+ of the violence - you can have 1 group which almost totally excludes perpetrators, protecting 50% of the population. Almost negligent not to.

It doesn't work if you split on the basis of who suffers the most violence. You would just get one target-rich group for the perpetrators in it and one target-poor group for its perpetrators.

And are TW being attacked for being male or being TW?

I am not sure about general violent physical attacks
nut here are some articles about murders.

Some statistics your son may be thinking of may relate to the sex trade abroad.

Incidentally, let your ds know that the way women are treated in those places and around the world generally
is appalling.

TRANS MURDER MONITORING – @STILLTish. Gender Abolition
https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/01/04/trans-murder-monitoring-2/

The Truth about Trans Murders
https://unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

Funnily enough, none!

I was going to say the same as @MrsDanversGlidesAgain . It would be helpful to know the country. Also his argument is rather meaningless, I mean..they could face 4x the violence compared to a cat or a goldfish. Facts really do matter, and nothing should be assumed.

He can't prove anything because like we've said, it's a meaningless claim.

You know, he used to not care about this shit but he's just done one year of uni and he's all TWAW. Fucking infuriating.

Being male puts you at a higher risk of certain types of assault and of being murdered

Having just said that men suffer more violence myself, I need to pull us both up. One thing I always try to nail here is that "incidence rate" is not the same thing as "risk".

To a large extent the higher incidence rate versus males is because of differing male/female behaviour, in that males are more likely to put themselves into dangerous situations, underestimate risk, are more likely to escalate conflicts rather than withdraw, etc.

And also there are protective measures like sex-separation - a woman is far less likely to be in a confined space alone with a unknown violent male than another male is.

So the incidence rate we see is after a whole bunch of risk-addressing actions to try to deal with the risks to women. In a non-civilised setting with fewer protections, I'm confident the male incidence rate would not be higher than women's, due to a higher underlying risk to women.

Prior to all this kicking off I'd have said if he's at uni then doesn't he know how to do research, critically evaluate sources and present an argument with evidence? but it doesn't seem to be like that any more 😞

University is a breeding ground for #nodebate and has been for years. It seems to suck all thinking out of their brains which is ironic considering they go to uni because they are supposedly intelligent.

So why do trans people try and get more people to transition? Why such a push for it in schools? Surely the message should be - being trans is shit for the person involved, rather than -come and join in our great big trans/queer party.

Is pretending to believe that people can change sex going to change that? I think your son and the other men could find a better solution in going to men and trying to change their behaviour with these non facts rather than relying on women to give up safety and identity to protect men from each other.

I asked him if he was looking at American figures and he changed the subject.
Honestly, he's been spouting bollocks to me over messenger for over an hour.
Utter joke

I don't think being trans is something you do just because you fancy it

Really. I'm sure better informed posters than me can rebut that claim.

So he's made a claim, can't back it up, can't justify his stance....tell him to come back when he's got a coherent and fully evidenced argument.