'Trans 4 times as likely to be victims of violent crimes'

[WhisperingAutistic]

Just having a bit of a do with my 20 year old DS and he hit me with that.

Is there data that shows otherwise? My Google skills are not pulling up much.

Cheers

This then led on to womens spaces and we spoke about prisons. Him trying to say that TIFs should be allowed in male jails (lol) and me showing why this is a bad idea etc.
He then came at me with that supposed stat.

Right, so this goes back to the fact that regardless of how vulnerable transwomen will obviously be in male prisons, that isn't women's problem to solve.

It's an issue for the male prison estate to solve, because transwomen are biologically male.

If he really cares that much about vulnerable transwomen in prison, he should be pressuring the male prisons to do a better job of protecting them, not offering up female prisoners as a sacrifice.

I tried to. He used the argument of effeminate men get raped in male jails... im so disappointed in him

I wonder if that is more to do with a women's perception, and society not considering attacks on women as being a hate crime. Women just accept being yelled at in the street that they are an "ugly b*tch" whilst a TW considers that a hate crime for example.

So because effeminate men get raped in jails that makes it OK for women to face the same threat rather than being outraged that ANYONE faces sexual violence in prison?

Your restraint I saying 'I'm so disappointed in him' is commendable. I don't know what a year of HE has taught him but it certainly isn't thinking, logical or otherwise.

@whisperingautistic I would point out that all male prisoners are at risk of rape in a male prison, what with rape being an exclusively male crime here in the UK. By his logic, we should put all of them in the female estate to protect them from it. Paedophiles are at a high risk. Should we put them in the female estate, too? And if not, why not? Ask about Isla Bryson and Amy George. Which prison for them?

Is he digging in because he doesn't know how to dig his way out, do you think?

The problem is that any abuse suffered by trans people is being used to tell women to shut up about our rights.

If transwomen are shouted at or beaten up, that's terrible but it's not the fault of women who don't think males should use female spaces and the answer to stopping the abuse isn't to allow males to use female spaces.

Well he's quoting from an American article - in America, black and latino transwomen (who make up a large proportion of the trans population) are more likely to be assaulted as many work as sex workers. When asked why they think they were assaulted, a large portion replied that it usually happened when the client found out they (the transwoman) had a penis.

Who is perpetrating this violence?

Just came across this - though cant access full article:

this article presents findings from an original data set of murders of transgender people in the United States during the 30-year period from 1990 through 2019. Findings reveal that the gender and racial gaps in homicide of transgender people far exceed those of cisgender people. Transgender women are substantially more likely to be murdered than transgender men, and transgender women of color are murdered much more frequently than white transgender women. Attending to sexuality is also important because a substantial number of murders of transgender women occur in sexual interactions. However, transgender women of color are more likely to be killed while exchanging sex for money, whereas sex work circumstances are uncommon among white victims.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08912432231171172

Not sure what the figures are for the UK.

And it may come as a surprise to your son but the incidence of rape in men's prisons has always happened and will not be happening now because of being an effemitive man.

The arguement surely is that if people are trans they need to be imprisoned separately.

Really good point
He's stopped responding now. I think he was floundering.
He even attempted the 'well lesbians could sexually assault too'.. I mean, wtf?

Good point. Women of the old-fashioned kind are so used to verbal abuse it's just not something that gets reported, whereas a transwoman who has previously lived a very priviledged life as a male and NEVER got called a fucking cunt etc, and is now walking around in women-face, get the shock of their lives when suddenly they start to experience what is normality for many women. So they then report THAT as abuse.

Not forgetting the high level of injury and death from domestic violence which somehow is just ignored as though not part of the overall pattern of male violence.

That study has been discussed on here before.

Look at figure 1 and the confidence intervals. Especially look at the comparison between "transgender women" and "women" in figure 1a. The bar shows the 90% confidence interval, which means, to a first approximation, the real number could be at any point along that bar.

There was a press release about the study that claimed that "transgender women" were more likely to be victimised than "cisgender women" - but as you can see from their own graph, they don't actually have the data to support that.

The finding that "transgender men" (i.e. a vulnerable group of female people) were more likely to be victimised than "cisgender men" (i.e. men) is, on the other hand, robust.

Also noteworthy: women in the crime victimisation survey were more likely to be victims of violence than men were. (And that actually is a solid finding. There's no bar showing 90% confidence intervals for "cisgender" people because the sample size of people who don't identify as trans was large, so the bars would be tiny.)

I guess this is the problem. There may be 'fake' trans men who want to use that to gain access to women. There may be impressionable kids who would not have thought of being trans without being exposed to that idea. But from my observation of my relative there are also 'genuine' trans people, where the mapping of their gender identity in their brain and their physical bodies doesn't match. We just don't yet understand what is going on to cause that, and why it is so distressing for them that they will even risk being physically attacked and disowned by their families in order to pursue being trans.

@WhisperingAutistic I also think a lot of men, especially young, inexperienced men, are naive about male sexual violence towards women. They sort of know, but they don't know. We also have a generation that has been brought up with films and TV that have told them that a tiny woman like Scarlett Johansson could survive being punched in the head by a large man and just shake it off and carry on.

Here's the "research" report )from USA

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

The National Crime Victim Survey is a self-reported survey in America, ie, not based on police records or court statistics.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf

also just wanted to point out that as always in these studies, it shows the truly vulnerable group is trans men but nonetheless the statistics are leveraged to bully women into letting males into women's spaces.

But from my observation of my relative there are also 'genuine' trans people, where the mapping of their gender identity in their brain and their physical bodies doesn't match

I don't doubt there are, and I'm sorry your relative has suffered abuse; but there are men who are cosplaying being women for whatever reasons of their own and it's thanks to them that genuine trans people, many of whom have lived like that for years, are being lumped in with the ones who aren't genuine.

@DarkDayforMN I agree - the data really doesn't support the conclusions they want it to. They note the small sample size as a problem, admit they had to estimate some numbers, and also admit that they were using self-reported data which is by it's very nature unreliable.

He's right that trans-identifying men get a tough time in prison. So do effeminate men and gay men. That is a problem that needs to be dealt with. Endangering women is not the appropriate solution.

I get the temptation to lose compassion for trans people. But I don't think we should give in to it.

I wonder if that is more to do with a women's perception, and society not considering attacks on women as being a hate crime. Women just accept being yelled at in the street that they are an "ugly b tch" whilst a TW considers that a hate crime for example.

That's a really interesting point, WhiteFire - I think you might be into something there.

also admit that they were using self-reported data which is by it's very nature unreliable

I'm not a statistician or someone at all expert at interpreting data, but I thought it would be self-reported. The danger with that is that the people who feel strongly about the subject of the survey are more likely to respond than someone who's neutral.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022

56% rise in hate crimes against trans people (prob due to better reporting and tracking combined with increased anti-trans sentiments)
almost half are violent crimes against the person and not “public order” (ie verbal)

im always amazed at how many people will diminish the abuse trans people face by dismissing evidence. It is hard to be trans, and many live in fear. Is it so hard to believe people when they tell you about their experiences??

Reminds me of the 'more trans are murdered than other people' claim. Turns out the figures were based on Brazil, where about 90% of them end up working as sex workers and hence at greater danger of violence.

Not only that, they were based on a survey of male trans prostitutes.

Logic problem.

I have some chickens and some foxes. The chickens are prone to being attacked by foxes. Chickens don't attack foxes. Some of the foxes are prone to being attacked by other foxes.

Should I

(a) put all the chickens and attacked foxes into one pen and all the other foxes into another pen.

(b) put all the chickens into one pen and then figure out what to do with the foxes.

One of these solutions has is significantly better than the others. Can you figure out which one? Hint - it's about the chickens.