Horrible news story

[MumblesParty]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66107716

And I can't help wondering if the "women" assailants are actually women.
Poor kid.

“How many trans friends do you want me to have christ i'm not a pastor. I think sharing the lived experiences from people in my own life are more important to reference than what some trans activist said last Tuesday on twitter.”

I don’t care how many trans people you know. The point is, you are centering males and calling it feminism. That was my point. You also keep piling on the hyperbole and using their anecdotes as some kind of argument winner. The point is use facts to support your argument. I hate to say it, but we really have heard about everyone’s nice trans friends and their journeys every day as if they are leverage for allow male‘s needs to be priortised over female people’s needs.

“What frame of reference do you have for all this or do you just point and guess?”

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Again, the more you beg to be reported, the less inclined I am to report you. I’d like your posts to stand as a testament to the gobbledygook of the gender movement, and to your childish temper whenever you’re told “NO”. Nobody’s going to make you a martyr.

Now, that will do. You have delighted us long enough.

This thread only exists because of gender ideology.

The doubt that arises from the police information only exists because of gender ideology.

The doubt that arises from the reporting from the national broadcaster only exists because of gender ideology.

The arguments that this story has evoked about reality only exist because of gender ideology.

This is what gender ideology has done to our society: it has done nothing but create a society where truth does not exist, only what is debated, a society where people attempt to gaslight us about our reality. A society where some people blindly accept it.

It’s an utterly toxic ideology.

Re studies. Not tonight. I am on my phone and cut and paste is too hard tonight. Tomorrow if there is space on this thread I can post some.

or

You can read this. Many of the studies and papers for so many things relating to this wide topic are linked here in the last 15 pages or so.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?page=1

Have you ever seen the form for diagnosing Gender Dysphoria. I've never seen more probing questions on an NHS form and i've took blood tests.

@evieowlette And as for forms try looking at a PIP assessment from (my last one ended up 189 pages long) they require you to describe in excruciating detail every single second of your day.

Do the gender dysphoria forms want to know how you wipe your arse or insert a tampon? How many times you shit or pee yourself each day? Because that's the sort of questions disabled people in this country have to answer.

I hope there is a massive public rejection of this gaslighting and perversion of justice.

Seriously… how likely is this to be a 6 foot 3 sexually assaulting woman- who leaves a young male victim with unconscious and partially clothed? Working on this crime with another 5foot 9 woman?!

Why are police or the media pretending that cross dressing people can’t do crimes like this by gaslighting and pretending humans can actually change sex?

@Slothtoes I will honestly be gobsmacked if this turns out to actually be two women. And if you are a 6 foot 3 woman I don't imagine if you are going to do something like this you would do it out in public where you stand out like a sore thumb given the rest of the description.

But imagine if we could actually trust the police and the press to tell the truth again at least people would know for definite exactly who to look out for.

I'm guessing this has been posted but Sussex police says the victim 'describes the perpetrators' as two women www.sussex.police.uk/news/sussex/news/witness-appeals/police-investigating-sexual-assault-on-teenager-by-two-women-in-burgess-hill/
BBC news is getting ridiculous. Is it written by idi?

Yes. It has been discussed at length.

Well put.

Do you think the surgeries are performed at the GIC? They’re not. They are performed at NHS hospitals where there is appropriately trained staff and facilities to care for them post op. Which means someone waiting for a mastectomy electively is waiting for the same theatre space, staff and hospital bed as a woman waiting for a mastectomy to treat breast cancer. So who goes first? Currently it’s based on clinical need which means those with less serious conditions wait longer. Personally I think that’s how it should be.

And yes, I have seen the forms. I’ve even filled one in. My definition of intrusive must be different to yours because I write a fair few referral letters, referring things from urinary and faecal incontinence, erectile dysfunction, psychosis symptoms to name a few and I think the GIC forms asking for the patient’s experiences and thoughts about themselves are not intrusive. It’s basic clinical information to decide if the referral to that service is appropriate.

And this is before we can’t to surgeries and treatments trans people can access that women can’t. Got PCOS and lots of facial hair from it that is causing you psychological distress? Sorry you’re not a man who thinks he’s a woman so got to pay for it. Got crippling bank pain, shoulder pain and maybe wounds or infections from having very large breasts. Sorry, that’s cosmetic and the NHS won’t treat you. Want to have a mastectomy because you feel they’re wrong for your body? Go right ahead.

If you think trans people’s access to healthcare (largely unevidenced outcomes and what evidence there is suggests surgery doesn’t relieve dysphoria for many) is poor because they’re trans then you have no clue. It’s shit for everyone and getting worse.

The lack of journalism here is bewildering. Police give crime stories to journalists to help appeal for witnesses and ultimately secure information leading to an arrest and conviction. But a good, inquisitive journalist shouldn’t just publish a police press release as a copy and paste job, they should be writing the story themselves, using the press release as as a starting point.

At the very least, they should be seeking out quotes and more information from the investigating officer. So a good journalist would be asking leading questions that would result in explanatory quotes, perhaps something like this:

DCI Plod said: “This was a horrifying attack and I urge anyone with information to come forward as soon as possible. These women are very distinctive in appearance due to their height and hair colour, and we believe someone may have seen them in the area shortly before or after the attack. Sexual assaults by women are comparatively rare. However, I would like to reassure the public that we are doing everything we can to find these women and bring them to justice.”

Or: “The boy described the attackers as female but we are not ruling out the possibility that the taller individual is a male who identifies as female. Due to their bright hair colour, it’s possible these offenders were wearing wigs.”

I mean, come on, it’s not rocket science. The scant information provided by Sussex Police is throwing up so many questions that the public is going to have a rat in hell’s chance of finding these perpetrators unless a more detailed explanation is provided. Never has the need for clear language been more important. The lack of clarity in this witness appeal is doing this poor young boy no favours whatsoever.

I've never seen more probing questions on an NHS form and i've took blood tests.

Blood tests are very common procedures. Most of us here will have had multiple blood tests through our lives. You don’t have to fill in any forms at all.

Again with the transphobia.

You probably should educate yourself more.

No one needs to have surgery to be trans.

Plus with the paraphillia that we are not allowed to name, most trans women dont want to have an operation. The whole point to them is to be Male. But yeah we full grown adults are never allowed to mention the name of this paraphillia. Shame.

You seem to be refusing to answer and again for the lurkers I will ask and presumably get no reply. What does living as a woman look like to you.

“The government does not have enough trained specialists to process claims but surprisingly enough diagnosing someone for Gender Dysphoria is incredibly probing and most Transgender People lie anyway after waiting for 4-5 years because why would you tell the truth after waiting so long. It's pointless.”

“most Transgender People lie anyway”

I missed this last night.

This is incredible. In amongst all this discussion about how hard it is to be diagnosed to get treatment, and how crap the NHS is , is this nugget. That most Transgender People lie anyway to get what they ‘want’ rather than be accurately diagnosed by experienced clinicians.

What I don’t understand from evieowlette is whether evieowlette considers this a gender of thing or a bad thing.

That poster does seem to have a very low opinion of trans people.

As well as lying to doctors to get what they want, according to evie, if males who identify as trans are told they shouldn't use women's single sex spaces because it could cause distress to the women who need those spaces, those males will carry on using them anyway. Evie is portraying male trans people as narcissistic sociopaths who are unable to empathise with women at all.

Third spaces, services and categories have always been the obvious solution or answer - but are feverishly rejected by trans activists.

No, Hormone Replacement Therapy is the process of replacing a dwindling supply of naturally occuring hormones. Primarily for women after menopause.

@evieowlette ”People in the UK already go to Thailand or if they have the money the Netherlands for these kind of surgeries because the NHS wont provide them properly without waiting a century.”

The NHS is quite right not to carry out surgery when there is nothing wrong with a person’s body. It’s a waste of time and money to remove or remodel a body part that is healthy and functioning correctly. NHS resources are stretched already (I can give you countless examples of people suffering real physical pain, deterioration in health, and even death - because the NHS (to use your own turn of phrase) won’t provide them properly without waiting a century.

Firstly - don't call women "cis" - it is a slur, as has been mentioned here many times. Posters here have respected your wish not to be called a man, so please respect ours in reference to "cis".

Oestrogen does not "replace" testosterone in men. It is prescribed in enormous quantities to negate the effects. Testosterone is not removed - it is just suppressed. One hormone is not used to "replace" another. You can't take a hormone out, and put another in. That's not how hormones work.

In women HRT replaces the hormone which the body no longer produces - whether because of menopause, radical ovarian surgery, hormone imbalance - whatever. It is prescribed in lowest effective doses, and the patients are carefully monitored, because even people whose bodies are designed by nature to respond positively to HRT can have adverse reactions.

And BTW - It's "its", not "it's" when used as the possessive. Words matter.

Because someone is determined to derail.

You have male toilets, female toilets and a gender neutral toilet for those that need that. I've seen this system installed in a new auditorium/theatre space in my city.

If males continue to use the female toilets, despite the fact there is a specific facility for them, social pressure and strong disapproval should do the job. That is how it works now and has always worked.

If privacy and dignity is really waht matters, rather than identity validation, then this solution is a win win for everyone.

@evieowlette ”Living as your desired gender for 2 years” I would also like to know what this means. I have a great concern I may have been living as a woman wrong so I would like some clarification as to what exactly living as my gender looks like. I get the impression Evie either knows but isn’t sharing, or is utterly clueless and is trotting out a meaningless line and ignoring requests for an explanation of what the words they are using actually mean. I suspect the latter.

Good grief this went a bit nuts overnight.

Increasingly when I see women - and this sounds like a young woman - who is so very much committing huge amounts of energy to rushing around counselling and caring for and protecting friends living from the sounds of things in fairly constant high emotional crisis and need, I start to wonder what needs that caretaker is meeting in themselves. It's a trap many young women fall into and I speak from experience.

If you work in such a role, it's in strong boundaries and you are asked to constantly question the effect of the high emotion and need and the rush of being needed to ensure that you are not in fact using the person to meet your own needs or unintentionally encouraging the other person towards the interactions causing the rewarding rush of feeling in you in ways that don't in fact help them to get anywhere healthier.

I also wonder if, in addition to the feelings of being needed, of protectiveness and all the high emotion and crisis, some women get sucked up in this because they know their friends/others will never run around after them like this or invest this attention and care in them. Providing it to others is as near as they can get to that experience for themselves.

Not to mention too, where these women acquired the idea - and who from - that their virtue as a woman is all rooted in extreme end martyrdom and sacrifice of self and others to their special people.

Co dependency. And those who have experienced difficult relationships themselves being drawn to those who meet their needs. It's quite a thing, the relationships board spends a lot of time pulling women out of this trap one by one. But it makes me increasingly wonder about whether the women so passionately insisting that women just lie down and surrender themselves so poor, desperate, so very distraught and illtreated people can be nurtured, are in fact involved in some really rather unhealthy and unwell behaviours and motivations themselves, and it's a bit of a worrying diad.

Transwomen are male. We have single sex spaces for a reason; that reason still exists.