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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

232 replies

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:11

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

OP posts:
wonderinglywondering · 28/06/2023 19:14

Jesus Christ OP. I don’t have any clever arguments for you I’m afraid, but your “friend” is an absolute tool and certainly not a friend.

Of course your are female. Only female people can suffer PCOS die to, you know, ovaries. Please don’t give it a second thought.

Beamur · 28/06/2023 19:15

Your 'friend'is an idiot. That's it really.
You are a woman with a medical condition.

senua · 28/06/2023 19:15

Your friend is batshit.
PCOS stands for Polycystic ovary syndrome (not that you need me to tell you that). OVARIES. Only the FEMALE has ovaries. You are female. You are not intersex.

Changethetoner · 28/06/2023 19:16

Your friend is not a friend. Of course she's wrong, and how dare she say you are not a woman. I'm angry on your behalf.

FrustratedAndFuming · 28/06/2023 19:16

Your "friend" is an idiot.

You can have PCOS and be a fully fledged real deal woman.

AnneWhittle · 28/06/2023 19:17

she is talking out of her arse you don't need to articulate a response

Anaemiafog · 28/06/2023 19:17

I'm not very educated in these matters but surely the PC is simply many cysts but yours happen to be on your ovaries. My niece has PCKS (kidneys), what's the difference? Does that make my niece intersex?

Anaemiafog · 28/06/2023 19:18

Oh, and her dad and uncle have it too.

Smartiepants79 · 28/06/2023 19:18

I haven’t read such a bunch of pseudo scientific twaddle in a long time.
Your friend is an idiot and appears to have fallen down the rabbit hole.
She also appears to be not a very nice person.
You are very much better off without her.

FriedasCarLoad · 28/06/2023 19:20

Your friend is completely wrong. A hormonal imbalance doesn't change your sex.

Women with PCOS still have XX chromosomes and female reproductive organs, just as men with hormonal imbalances or errectile dysfunction are still men.

And your friend was not only stating unfounded and outrageous views, but doing so in a particularly tactless and cruel way.

Mutabiliss · 28/06/2023 19:21

What utter rubbish. You are obviously a woman, PCOS is a condition that affects women, because only women have ovaries.

The convoluted bollocks TRAs come up with is so bloody tiring.

Fizzadora · 28/06/2023 19:21

FrustratedAndFuming · 28/06/2023 19:16

Your "friend" is an idiot.

You can have PCOS and be a fully fledged real deal woman.

You can ONLY have PCOS if you are a fully fledged real deal woman.

itwasthegintalking · 28/06/2023 19:22

Your friend is an idiot and certainly not a good friend. Drop her and her ill informed views.

AnotherEmma · 28/06/2023 19:23

What an unpleasant person this "friend" is Angry

A woman has XX chromosomes a female reproductive organs: a uterus, ovaries and vagina. It doesn't matter if she has PCOS or any other medical conditions affecting her hormones or reproductive organs. It doesn't matter if she's had a hysterectomy. It doesn't matter if she doesn't have periods. It doesn't matter if she has never been pregnant or given birth. She is a woman.

I'm so sorry she has got into your head. It's gaslighting. Please just end the friendship.

Flowers
bellac11 · 28/06/2023 19:23

Good god. She is off her head!!!

Stop crying this minute, its not worth losing the hydration in this weather.

Im afraid she is one for the bin. She's a lunatic!!!

(I had PCOS for years by the way, I sport a fetching moustache!!)

JellySaurus · 28/06/2023 19:24

You are female. You are a woman.

A non-menstruating woman is still a woman. Menopause, hysterectomy, contraception or PCOS - the cause does not matter. You are still a woman.

She OTOH is a stupid woman. A deluded, stupid woman. Like most TRAs she is grabbing at anything to justify the unjustifiable.

ResisterRex · 28/06/2023 19:24

Fucking hell. This is awful. I'm so sorry to read this OP. I have worked with a couple of colleagues with PCOS (some time ago now) and I can't imagine being so insensitive to them. This isn't even a colleague, this is supposed to be a friendship!!

Guess the clue there is "supposed to be". She's no friend. That's obviously no comfort right now but this is no reflection on you whatsover.

Boomboom22 · 28/06/2023 19:24

Your friend is offensive. Intersex does not exist only m or f dsd's.

ZeldaFighter · 28/06/2023 19:24

My friend is a lovely woman with PCOS. There is absolutely no question that she is anything other than a woman with a hormonal imbalance and the same is true for you.

Do we say diabetics are not human, as humans have a working pancreas and don't need to take insulin???? What about other disabilities?

Your "friend" has been very cruel and I hope that, one day, she offers you a sincere apology. In the meantime, I would not be friends with someone so horrible.

As someone above said, it is a condition affecting the ovaries - the basis of female reproductive biology. You are 100% woman and any suggestion otherwise is utterly idiotic and offensive.

sdawa · 28/06/2023 19:24

I am sorry you have had to listen to such incoherent comments from someone you thought cared for you.

You are a woman
You do not have a disorder of sexual development

Your "friend" was cruel and stupid.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 28/06/2023 19:24

The proper definition of a woman: A woman is of a class that can produce large gametes. Those large gametes are produced by ovaries. By the fact you have polycystic ovary syndrome, it proves you are a woman. Full stop.

Chersfrozenface · 28/06/2023 19:25

Oh, OP, that's awful.

Your (soon to be ex) friend is a) medically and scientifically ignorant snd b) horrible.

Of course you're a woman. Only women can have PCOS.

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:25

Thank you so much for the replies, it really helps to know that I’m not going mad here. I wish I had thought to point out what PCOS means - the O is a clear giveaway that I’m female. A man who couldn’t produce sperm would still be male, too.

Thank you for your messages - it made me cry again when I read them. You are really kind

OP posts:
Motorina · 28/06/2023 19:25

This is why the term intersex is so disingenuous. It implies that there are a cohort of half-men/half-women which undermines the sex binary.

The term 'difference of sexual development' is much more helpful, because it is defined as any condition where there are abnormalities in the reproductive organs. It reinforces the binary.

Those conditions will be on a spectrum of seriousness, as will conditions with any other organ system. I have a heart condition, for example. It's a mild, occassional murmur. Does it affect the same organ as someone with heart failure? Sure. But that doesn't mean I have heart failure.

So, yes, you are a woman with an abnormality in your reproductive organs. That doesn't make you any less a woman. It doesn't make you intersex. And it has absolutely nothing to do with men in womens spaces.

Your friend is an idiot. Sorry.

Luckydog7 · 28/06/2023 19:25

Its all a pointless argument anyway. People with an intersex condition are also either male or female with a medical condition, not some status in-between and many are horrified and offended by the association with trangender thinking. Shes including you in a group that doesn't exist as she sees it because she has been taken in by the propaganda.