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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

232 replies

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:11

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

OP posts:
HawdMeBack · 28/06/2023 20:12

Wasabiaddiction · 28/06/2023 19:26

What an idiot.

I had PCOS. But I guess that since I am menopausal, I no longer have PCOS.

Does that mean that I was once intersex but am not no longer intersex!

You will always have PCOS, menopause doesn't change that. The hormone imbalance doesn't rectify itself when you stop producing eggs.

WunWun · 28/06/2023 20:12

Fucking hell. I hope you never speak to her again!

Bluelagoon16 · 28/06/2023 20:13

She's as thick as a whale omelette, and also a hypocrite for telling you how to perceive yourself (which she's factually wrong about) whilst berating you that others can identify however they want:
Block and ignore

LoobiJee · 28/06/2023 20:13

MsFogi · 28/06/2023 19:53

Hmm by that logic I would argue that your 'friend' is not alive/conscious given that her brain has clearly ceased to function.
Seriously, do not give it another thought and remember this person is not a 'friend'.

Brilliant. 😅

Mumtothreegirlies · 28/06/2023 20:13

Pcos effects FEMALES with XX chromosomes and ovaries. your friend is a nut job

flimsywhimsy · 28/06/2023 20:13

I sincerely hope that you stop subjecting yourself to this so-called friend. She is NOT a friend. Even if she's idiotic enough to believe what she was saying, any decent person wouldn't continue to argue the point with someone who was obviously upset and feeling attacked. Normal people wouldn't do that to someone they don't like, much less a friend!

crostini · 28/06/2023 20:13

Your friend is vile and stupid.

You are a woman. Please don't listen to her.

bellac11 · 28/06/2023 20:13

Yes PCOS is a funny thing, I had some minor hormone imbalance when I was in my late teens, sent for scans and they saw cysts on my ovaries

Later however, when my facial hair got worse, more testing and scanning apparently showed no hormone imbalance and the cysts had gone, even though I then wasnt having periods by then

Periods have come back with a vengeance in peri menopause and GP wont do blood tests, Ive also got fibroids too

Facial hair has never improved, its awful and nothing has ever really treated it

I must be a man!!!

Datun · 28/06/2023 20:14

Not only is your friend wrong, she sounds rather unpleasant.

But this is also the fault of transactivism. Transactivists have force teamed themselves with intersex people (I know it's now an outdated term).

I believe it was GIRES who wanted to partner up with the intersex society, due to the fact that people with DSDs often will have corrective surgery and GIRES thought it would legitimise the surgery that trans people have.

The Intersex Society refused, point blank to partner up (over and over, as it turned out, because GIRES would not take no for an answer). But that doesn't seem to have stopped trans organisations adding the I anyway.

They are also keen to add A for autism, apparently.

I'm guessing the theory is the more people they add to the alphabet, the greater the collective power - all for the benefit of the T of course.

If they can include women with PCOS as DSD, that will swell their numbers.

Your condition is being used to further the goals of transactivism.

Your friend is a twat for not only claiming that PCOS is a DSD, but for also for trying to muddy the waters by pretending it calls your sex into question.

It doesn't. Obviously.

I hope this will be something of a shark jump for them, and they get the disgusted pushback they deserve.

Okshacky · 28/06/2023 20:16

I have PCOS, she’s ridiculous.

Does she actually know what it is?
How can over producing follicles mean you are LESS female? How can reaching menopause later mean you are LESS female?
Most women with PCOS may have more body hair but they also are usually shorter and more curvy. They don’t resemble men because they aren’t men.

ReadingSoManyThreads · 28/06/2023 20:16

Your (now) ex-friend is a delusional cunt.

SlightlygrumpyBettyswaitress · 28/06/2023 20:18

Indeed, o is for ovaries, that transwomen do not have.

PriOn1 · 28/06/2023 20:18

Devonshiregal · 28/06/2023 20:07

Why is is not flagged up? Like how is it just ignored when trans lot use intersex as an argument? This is so annoying

It is flagged up by women regularly, but (other than a small minority of truly delusional people/liars) most people claiming they are trans don’t generally claim to be intersex. They merely use it as a gotcha. If you can’t say definitively that 100% of people are male or female, then you can no longer distinguish who should go in which box is the argument.

As I have often commented, it’s an absolutely remarkable coincidence that the science behind sex suddenly became too complicated to explain and define at exactly the same time that men decided they were women and began to demand access to all women’s rights and spaces.

OP, I hope this thread has made you feel better. I couldn’t believe what I was reading as your post unfolded. I can’t imagine being so welded to any ideology that I would use a friend’s medical condition as a weapon. She is not a kind person at all and I hope you don’t ever have to interact with her again.

Thursa · 28/06/2023 20:22

Your “friend” is a fucking idiot!

Qat · 28/06/2023 20:25

Your friend is nuts
PCOS does not mean you are intersex!!!
What absolute nonsense.

loislovesstewie · 28/06/2023 20:25

I'm another with PCOS. I'm now way past the menopause, I'm still a woman, I was a woman when I was young with PCOS because as all the other posters are saying only people with ovaries, ie women get it. Your friend is an idiot, she has no idea about either PCOS or people with a DSD( not intersex as others have rightly pointed out). Don't have anything else to do with her, she's not worth your time or effort. Sending you a hug. 🤗

WhereAreWeNow · 28/06/2023 20:25

OP, not only is your friend wrong (pcos is not a DSD, you are not intersex), she is also incredibly insensitive, unkind, and inconsiderate.

Even if she had been right (which she wasn't), it would have been cruel to keep on badgering you when she could see you were upset. The fact that she knows you have PCOS suggests you've confided in her. She's taken your confidence and tried to use it against you.

I think you deserve better friends!

Malificent1 · 28/06/2023 20:26

senua · 28/06/2023 19:15

Your friend is batshit.
PCOS stands for Polycystic ovary syndrome (not that you need me to tell you that). OVARIES. Only the FEMALE has ovaries. You are female. You are not intersex.

Came here to literally say the same thing. The clue is in the name and only women have ovaries. The end.

Partyofeight · 28/06/2023 20:29

She is insane.

SabrinaThwaite · 28/06/2023 20:32

Your ‘friend’ is using you to prop up her nonsensical and unscientific TRA beliefs.

You don’t need people like that in your life.

continentallentil · 28/06/2023 20:33

Intersex conditions do not include PCOS

Your friend is talking utter gibberish. Step away. Hopefully she’ll calm down eventually.

Backstreets · 28/06/2023 20:34

You’re friends with morons and you shouldn’t let them upset you 💐

ImnotanumberIAMAFREEMAN · 28/06/2023 20:35

What in the world?!!! She's out of her tiny little mind OP, please don't take it personally.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/06/2023 20:35

Holy fuck, what an unreconstructed idiot that 'friend' is, OP. How utterly fucking offensive. I'm so sorry.

Apollo441 · 28/06/2023 20:35

Your 'friend' is hideous human being that seems to be prepared to parrot any old garbage to push the transactivist cause. Justifying herself by saying that's how trans people feel is even more egregious. You are 100% female and transwomen are 100% male. No amount of spewing lies will change that fact.