PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

[kbana]

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

Insulin is a hormone, so I suppose she would say that any T1 diabetics who take insulin to stay alive are undergoing hormone therapy, and therefore intersex?! And what about about all the women taking The Pill? That's packed full of hormones, so they must be intersex as well. But if they stop taking it then they turn back into female......??

In short: bollocks. Or ovaries.

Joining in the chorus here OP.

Of course you are female. You are a women with polycystic ovaries. You have a medical condition where your ovaries don’t quite function as they should.

You have absolutely NO ambiguity around your sex. Activists are leveraging your condition to expand what they call ‘intersex’.

Ugh, sorry this ignorant, wrongheaded 'friend' upset you so much, OP. Grossly unkind... that's one of the ways you can tell she knows full well you're a woman, the TRA #bekind never applies to us, only to the male colonisers.

I have/had PCOS too. All it meant in my case was irregular periods, getting bad acne when I came off the pill to TTC and then a couple of rounds of clomid to help me ovulate. Of course, like every other person in the world with PCOS, I'm 100% woman.

Point one: your former friend is a cruel dishonest idiot. I'm sorry you had to suffer because of that.

Point two, something as common as red hair is pretty rare anyway. There's little or no red hair in China, Asia, Africa and among indigenous Americans or people from Oceania.

The fact is that any man can call himself Barbara, wear lipstick, a dress and high heels and demand that everyone defers to him as being a woman and allow him to use women's toilets and he can even take hormones, have breast implants and have his penis removed.

But after he's dead and buried if he's dug up they are going to find a MALE skeleton.

You are not intersex, you are a woman with a medical condition.

The person who you called a friend is deranged and is suffering with delusions and is mentally incapacitated.

OP, frankly your “friend” is mental.

like, mad as a box of frogs.

No logic, no sense, no critical thought, just plain old lunacy / stupidity.

Please please do not sit and cry about someone saying something that has zero sense or logic to it. Something which is in fact totally and utterly barmy.

PCOS makes you intersex - honestly never heard such a load of old shit.
I couldn’t be friends with someone so deluded and daft.

Don’t give this friend your time and energy, it’s like you crying over her saying that because you have hair you could be considered a gorilla.

She’s a loon.

Well I've gone through the menopause so if I take HRT I guess I am intersex too?

OP, come and join me on the FUCK RIGHT OFF bench. We have wine.

Just one more woman here with pcos, to say sorry your friendships ended this way but honestly with views like that I would say you're best out of it.

As pp's have said, the very fact you have pcos shows you are most definitely a woman. Life has gone beyond batshit with some of this stuff, if that makes me a dinosaur bring on the bloody meteor lol

Firstly, your friend is using the term 'intersex' which is considered to be outdated and insulting by and to those who have a Disorder of Sexual Development.

PCOS is a endocrine disorder which affects only females. DSD's are all sex specific conditions but PCOS is not a DSD.

From differently-normal.com/author/clarecais/ -

'It is also increasingly common for people without a DSD, to identify as intersex, with even Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome being claimed as the most common intersex variation, even though most women with PCOS would never describe themselves as intersex and this is not officially recognised by any medical organisation.'

Claiming that PCOS is an intersex condition seems to come from two deeply unpleasant standpoints -

1. It's to push the idea that sex is a spectrum. It's not. DSD conditions are being deliberately misused in order to claim that people are less female/less male. It's utter bullshit.

1. It's the whole 'not like other girls' crap. Women who want to claim a special identity but don't feel that non - binary/trans is unique and special enough are claiming that their PCOS makes them intersex. I see it all the time on Twitter.

I really take issue with your friend saying that women with PCOS medicate to 'feel more like women'. We are women. With a female endocrine disorder.

Your ex-friend’s over-riding motivation in life is her tribal allegiance.

The thing that is most important to her identity and to her view of herself is her credentials with this in-group which she has chosen to be a member of.

Think of her like a member of a religious sect holding beliefs which everyone else knows are ludicrous, including dogmatic and judgemental opinions about those who are not part of the sect, and a conviction that it is acceptable to say aggressive, contemptuous, and nonsensical things to people in the “out group”, like: unbelievers will burn in hellfire for evermore, and such like.

It’s easier to spot that sort of behaviour when it’s part of religious sect membership, than in your ex-friend’s case, as religious sect behaviour has been around for a long time, whereas the particular brand of evangelism and self-righteousness which your ex-friend is displaying is relatively new. So a ‘oh gawd, here we go’ response doesn’t come as readily when confronted with your ex-friend’s behaviour as it would when confronted with someone, say, banging a tambourine in your face.

Your ex-friend has demonstrated that her “spouting absolute garbage” capability is very high, while her thinking skills are low. Her humanity, compassion and basic decency are lower still.

What your ex-friend said was deeply offensive, insulting, crass, wrong and very stupid. Oh, and did I mention wrong?

Only females can have polycystic ovary syndrome. The clue is in the name.

You’re a woman. She is someone to be avoided.

OP your friend is cruel and an idiot. I have PCOS, was diagnosed with it almost 25 years ago and not once have I ever come across referred to as ‘intersex’. Not from GPs, consultants or gynaecologists who I have seen over the years. She is basically lying to you. It’s a female condition, affecting the ovaries and nothing to do with being ‘intersex’. What a horrible person she is.

You need ovaries to be able to suffer from polycystic ovaries...

I have felt for a long time that there is a correlation between my experience of domestic abuse (emotional, mental, financial, sexual, coercive control) and the tra movement. The twisting of facts when it's so obscenely obviously untrue which then makes you doubt reality. Yeah, cruel, narcissist and abusive behaviour from your 'friend'.

You're best off not having people like that around you @kbana .

Hmm by that logic I would argue that your 'friend' is not alive/conscious given that her brain has clearly ceased to function.
Seriously, do not give it another thought and remember this person is not a 'friend'.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me….if people use this ‘intersex argument’ to validate trans-ism, why doesn’t everyone associating as the opposite gender take genetic test to show whether or.l not they are, in fact, intersex?

if 100 trans people all signed up for genetic testing and discovered they were actually intersex, then surely the argument would be laid to rest - we would all have to accept that they clearly were born with muddled sex and therefore their choice to transition is validated.

of course, if they all turned out to not be intersex…well then

As many others have said she is an idiot

you are well shot of her

I have PCOS. If I don't sort it I have a better beard than my husband! I also don't wear make up, only wear trousers and have quite a deep speaking voice. I am still all woman! I can multitask and know how to clean toilets!

Hah! I have PCOS. Never in my life heard that I'm intersex! I was diagnosed with an internal scan (as in Giant wand scanner in my vagina) 20 years ago so maybe they just forgot to mention it one all the new terminology came in.
Better let my husband and kids know 🤔
I'm sorry your friend was a twat and upset you.
Well this has been a revelation 🤣

You have ovaries. How are you not a woman?
Your "friend" is batshit

That's upsetting to read. But actually, I don't think the person you are describing is very nice really. She would sacrifice your feelings to make a political point. You say yourself, you would be polite, despite your (entirely sensible and logical) GC views. I would actually feel quite calm about walking away from this relationship. You don't need it. But well done for speaking from your corner. Of course you are a woman, of that there is only doubt by people who really cannot think clearly about facts. I would call them fuckwits, but I can't imagine you would be that rude 😄

Your friend is awful. No friend would reduce another friends to tears over questioning their medical condition and sex.

OP you are a woman through and through. If your friend had half a brain she would realise that having a medical condition that only affects women is only possible if you are a woman.

Why is is not flagged up? Like how is it just ignored when trans lot use intersex as an argument? This is so annoying

And PCOS is reasonably common among women. Also, I was told when attending a scan for ovarian cysts that they are really really common among women, most of whom don't realise as they self resolve and recur all the time. Not sure if that helps, but PCOS is a female only condition.