Genuine question - is it mostly biological women who have reservations about the trans movement?

[ReleaseTheDucksOfWar]

After a couple of arguments on social media to do with women feeling safe or not when a trans-woman with a penis goes into women-only spaces .... I have the gut feeling that it's mostly biological women who have concerns about this, and it's mostly (sometimes well meaning) men who say that transwomen should be allowed into previously women-only spaces.

Is that the case or are there as many biological-born women supporting trans-women as men?

I realise I've probably got half the language wrong here but honestly, it seems a minefield.

Guess that the most accurate might be "XXX is living as a woman"?

How do you live as a woman?

Most men are not happy that their wife/girlfriend/daughter may not be safe in what should be a female only place. A while ago I was happy with the very rare men (identifying as women) who are more comfortable in women spaces, but now it seems to be any pervert can get in without any question, so the pendulum has swung far to far.

I know women and men who are vociferously anti-Rowling and pro separating spaces according to gender rather than sex, also transmen (i.e. women) .

I find it sad because they're people I admire and whose views on other issues I share on the whole.

I think generally speaking, people who don't believe in gender essentialism can see through it, as to us the only differences between males and females are biological ones based on reproductive functions.

My DH is a feminist and finds the essentialism of 'trans women are women' risible; he's sympathetic to GC women and is against trans women competing in women's sports, though I don't think he fully realises how difficult life can be for women or how much privilege he has as a male.

Me too. I was fine with self i.d. and shared loos until it suddenly ballooned in the last year or two and now randon blokes who like lipstick (Eddie Izzard) are pretending they're women.

There are many women (biological females) who support trans ideology. And although they mainly seem to be of a more left wing ideology, we know that the WI and other more conservative women's organisation who have accepted and even promote that TWAW.

Most disheartening is the fact that some women's group who provide services to women who have been victims of male violence also support being trans inclusive. On this thread here you will see that one of the largest world wide women's network has written a letter to the UN saying that the woman appointed to raise concerns about violence against women should be reprimanded for not being trans inclusive! https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4829500-please-support-reem-alsalem

But I think it is that biological women were the first to raise concerns that what had seemed like a very small group of men who might want to transition, had become a very powerful movement. And that far from prioritising how best to help people with genuine body dysmophia, had become a movement that seemed intent on taking aways women's rights. To the extent that women just asking for everyday respect and dignity eg changing rooms and toilets, were then seen as out of date dinasours.

IMO one of the reasons the trans movement became, and still is, so powerful, is that trans activism which focused on telling women they were in the wrong, became a platform that men's rights activists could then use to attack women.

I tell people that I don't say "biological women" for the same reason I don't say "geometric triangles". I got that from here and have been merrily using it since. :)

Anyway, I've read the replies now and it's as I expected. Mostly pretty positive posts about men and a few scattered like the one I quoted that suggests men just don't empathise or care because it doesn't affect them or out of some idea that men will support transwomen out of some male solidarity thing (lol no!)

One thing I'd like to add is that it's not only about physical threat. One thing I have observed to be a definite phenomenon is that a woman will be attacked far more than a man for saying the same thing. A woman will get called a terf and dogpiled online. A man will not or far less so. That's something I couldn't fail to notice and absolutely the case. That's the observation. The reason is speculation but I'm fairly sure it's rooted in deep resentment and anger towards women.

@OldGardinia my comment is misandrist? Huh, ok then.

My comment was referencing the many many men like Owen Jones, Ben Hunte, Peter Tatchell, politicians like Starmer, Biden, and many others on the centre and left, celebrities like Dan Radcliffe, Sam Smith, the CEO of Wickes (!), the chap who runs Lush, etc etc etc. They're not afraid of trans women and acting for self preservation alone. And yes, I think a lot of men lack the ability to properly empathise with women. Even if they have wives and daughters!

Jazz Jennings has a dad and brothers who are totally on board and right with the programme, it's not just the mother. Jackie Green had a dad who was massively homophobic and upset by any transgression of gender norms. He also did nothing to stop the mother from her course of action when he could have done so. It's not just women creating these trans children.

Go back just five years and the average person thought that transwomen had all or were going to remove their penises. Also very prevalent at the time was the belief in the "wrong brain" idea. That latter somewhat subsided but still cropping up.

This has been one of the biggest psyops on a population I have ever seen. It's absolutely been stage managed by some powerful individuals and interests. Nothing happens this quickly and this universally without it being engineered. Growing porn addiction laid a lot of the ground work for this, but there's more.

Yes it would seem so. Although I have a few gay friends who are also quite vocal

Son’s?
That what their are worried about?
Why?
What about girls/daughters?

Men and lesbians are concerned about getting a nasty surprise when dating (especially if they are insecure in their sexuality). Gen z may be less concerned as they are more likely to identify with being pansexual.

You would think parents would be more against as less likely to have grandchildren after surgery but this doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.probably if they think the alternative is suicide

There was a survey a while back that asked about transpeople using various types of single-sex space (of the opposite sex - so women asked about transwomen sharing their space, men asked about transmen sharing), and then repeated the question after explaining that most transpeople haven't had surgery. I don't remember the exact details but for virtually all of the pre-explanation questions women were more likely than men to say they were OK with it (more than half for all questions, I think, whereas men were below half for almost all). Post-explananion, both groups were considerably less positive about the idea in all situations.

I think those who are active on the women's rights side are more often women than men, but certainly not exclusively. And there are far too many women on the anti-women side, some of them very vocal.

I think this is quite a shrewd comment.

My observation is that some men find themselves highly motivated by the opportunity to scold women and demonstrate how right on they are.

A lot / possibly a majority of men adopt a “nothing to do with me guv” or a “why is isn’t such an issue?” position.

And a minority are willing to say something, and those that are willing to say something have some form of skin in the game - either they are gay, or they are a parent with a child in the age range being targeted.

I've been very relieved to see the number of men who now get the issue and are speaking out. I was incredibly disappointed in the predominantly male dominated sporting bodies from the IOC to the local cycling club busily handing over women's sport to mediocre males. Supportive men like Ross Tucker helped to restore my faith and I'm now watching with pleasure as these men are (slowly) being told NO.

I wouldn't mind so much if someone had had lower half removal/reconstruction surgery, but if they are as born then no, I don't think women-only spaces are for them.

I may be an outlier but I do not feel differently if a man has had the various surgeries. He is still a man. He has had a male upbringing. He may be a lovely lovely person, but he does not belong in spaces that have been set aside for women. There is the problem of the male gaze, even if that male denies his manhood, that would make me uncomfortable.

Why must women accept that they may have to be uncomfortable to placate a man with issues?

Every single man I know things it's lunacy that men are being allowed into women's spaces.

I don’t think you will find you are an outlier at all there dungs.

Most of the men I've been able to speak to about this are very much in agreement, but as it doesn't affect them in the same way it does us they are just less animated about it all. It's not worth the noise to them I suppose, lots of rolled eyes though.

The men I know (outside of my v woke workplace) think it's all bullshit BUT are not as bothered by it as I and other GC women I know are. They just dont have the same skin in the game. They are mainly married and middle.aged and highly unlikely to encounter a TW while dating or whatever, and of course don't feel threatened by the idea of TM in changing rooms even if they're not very happy with the idea.

My DH was late to the debate and a bit bemused by it all at first. We have spent a lot of time in a country with a lot of mixed facilities with urinals in cafes etc and he has found it very uncomfortable.

Yes, agree with with this. Your title doesn’t need the word “biological”. Just “women”. There’s no such person as a woman who isn’t biologically so.

Women tend to be more progressive / liberal, or certainly younger women anyway. So it's not a surprise if they are a little bit more "trans inclusive".

I would just see it as conformity to the group identity they have.

I'm very late to the debate!

And that far from prioritising how best to help people with genuine body dysmophia, had become a movement that seemed intent on taking aways women's rights.

This is how it seems to me now.

@OldGardinia
Go back just five years and the average person thought that transwomen had all or were going to remove their penises. Also very prevalent at the time was the belief in the "wrong brain" idea. That latter somewhat subsided but still cropping up.

Tbh that's me :o

As I say I've been living under a rock and I had assumed that the whole movement had been hijacked by aggressive people and some people who simply don't fit in easily anywhere and the more extreme trans people had given them a home and it'd all gone a bit dangerously mad.

I had assumed that anyone who was genuinely trans would be hoping to get surgery at some point. I cannot at all go along with people who want to live as a transwoman but retain their penises. That's just wrong.

Surely there really are some people who are genuinely born into the wrong body though?

(I really hope this doesn't come over as being disingenuous, I was accused of that along with 'sealioning' online, and i'm not. I've been on Mumsnet some years and really since making a Twitter account March last year it's the first time I've come across the whole business directly, though I'd seen some scary headlines and the vilification of J K Rowling, who seems to be a voice of common sense, and it's obvious to me that transwomen in women's sports is just wrong.)

Someone made the point upthread about the male gaze. I take that point very strongly if someone is walking into the women's spaces with penis still attached. But surely if there has been a surgical operation then it's not such an issue, in that there will be a difference of hormone?

I wonder if they'll feel the same when they're older, 40+? It's easy to think there's gender equality when you're young and when you've knocked aroudn the world a bit you realise there's no such thing.

... even down to, and I was utterly shocked at this, women-only medicine are tested on ... men only, because women's hormones mean that test results can vary. But it's insane!

The men I see in social media attacking feminists and defending genderism don't look well meaning to me. I get the sense that at some level, maybe unconsciously, they despise women.