Genuine question - is it mostly biological women who have reservations about the trans movement?

[ReleaseTheDucksOfWar]

After a couple of arguments on social media to do with women feeling safe or not when a trans-woman with a penis goes into women-only spaces .... I have the gut feeling that it's mostly biological women who have concerns about this, and it's mostly (sometimes well meaning) men who say that transwomen should be allowed into previously women-only spaces.

Is that the case or are there as many biological-born women supporting trans-women as men?

I realise I've probably got half the language wrong here but honestly, it seems a minefield.

I’d just like to add, in response to your use of the phrase “gender-distressed child”: this wasn’t a “thing” in the past. This “distress” has been caused largely by adults imposing an ideology on children and young people and by talking about this ideology as if it were a fact. These adults are responsible for any distress felt by children and young people, who should of course be free to grow up and make their own decisions on the basis of facts. The fact that gender ideology is now routinely part of the primary and secondary school curriculum is appalling.

I don't think it's entirely clear yet, but not to nearly the same extent, no. Women's sports, language, protections and social lives are at risk of being completely hollowed out.

No, as I said, men have far less to lose comparatively; but if this progresses, what about when heterosexual men wanting to date and marry women are publicly shamed and maybe even shunned for expressing a clear rejection of a TW as a potential partner?

How about when they lose job opportunities or promotions to a less-skilled and/or less-qualified TW because of 'positive discrimination' dictating that an opening is restricted to women only (which has interestingly not been considered a priority in all the years when people knew what a woman was, but now we have to centre and advance the new kind of 'woman')?

What about loving fathers whose children are propagandised and captured - and then (along with the children's mothers, of course) they're threatened with having them taken away from them if they don't agree to 'affirm' that they are something that they are not - much less if they're taken down the pathway of puberty blockers and eventually physical mutilation by influential and powerful people with an agenda?

Just to add though, that I do accept that there are people that in some way don't feel like they fit in their gender. Effeminate, gay men, or women that just aren't the feminine girl/lady type (just examples). I wholeheartedly support their rights to live their lives as they want to, to find their happiness. If that means adopting a gender expression more typical of the opposite sex, hormones and even surgery, then I don't object. But I know you can't actually change sex. I know sex is real and important. I don't support self-id,the medical transitioning of children, or males in spaces protected for females on the basis of sex. I support the change to the GRA to make clear that sex mean biological sex. It leaves protection for the the gender reassignment characteristic, and people and organisations should generally be free to decide if their spaces and services are for people based on sex or gender.

I have a trans friend who had SRS years ago. When he first decided to 'become a woman' he visited a number of people to talk to them about it, including us. He said he had been born in the wrong body, he would now be living as a woman. This was 25+ years ago. He then explained, that he'd been seeing a psychiatrist for some years, and he understood full well that there was no such thing as born in the wrong body, but that it was just occasionally useful shorthand. Same with living living as a woman. He also understood, knew full well, that he would still be a man, but that he would be presenting differently, softened jaw, higher voice, longer hair, wearing traditionally women's clothes etc.

This understanding that he was, always would be, a man was one of the most important aspects of his psych evaluation which would allow him to go on to the next stage, taking female hormones, growing breasts etc.

This is why the TRAs wanted the process simplified if not removed altogether. They do not need to understand as they already do. They do not want to do anything other than ensure women know their place. Below them, servicing them.

This is why mediocre men want women out of the way, one less obstacle one more easy step up.

I love my friend. He's seriously unwell as a result of all the horrible procedures and fakery he's undergone, but he still feels like it was worth it. I just wish he'd not felt the need to do any of it it at all, just grown up believing he was wonderful however and whatever he was.

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar

I've had a fair amount of contact with trans people that notably mostly female-male. For the most part they just want to get on with life, aren't interested in the political side of things. They are proud of their trans or non binary status, but don't really expect others to make changes except allow them to participate in life eg my relative plays rugby for a (non league for fun) men's team, as a transman.

Trans women in my more limited experience seem to be a little pushier but still the one I know the best uses the disabled loo (unisex) at the pub and makes no fuss whatsoever about pronouns (it's very obvious that their biological sex is male but loves short leather skirts, really no big deal (they look quite frankly ridiculous imho but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that). DD has transfemale friends I've met who want to be called she and want gender neutral facilities but none are calling to use women only ones in my personal experience.

Just my experiences. I think the pushy types shout loudly making it hard for the many who just want to quietly get on with life.

@proudmama23 What do you mean when you say they "don't really expect others to make changes except allow them to participate in life eg my relative plays rugby for a (non league for fun) men's team, as a transman."

Surely the team has been expected to make changes i.e. to allow a woman on the men's team. I know men can fight their own battles over all this and who they let into their sports, toilets etc but what you say is contradictory.

And there's no such thing as "transfemale".

@HothouseFlower Right. And, @proudmama23 non-binary as an identity is ridiculous. They are as male or female as the rest of us, and seem to forget that culturally in the West, gender-bending, androgynous dressing and style, breaking sex-based stereotypes etc., have been around for decades. Personalities, ‘looks’, style, likes and dislikes seem to be taken for some magical gender essence that literally makes them neither male nor female. It’s shallow and regressive thinking: ‘I don’t identify with the expectations of the social roles/clothes/hair associated with my bio sex, so I’m not a woman/man’, ‘Joan of arc wore men’s armour and cropped her hair so she was actually a they’.

It's difficult to generalise.

Based purely on social media interactions, I would say that most people who care passionately about this issue are women.

In the gender critical camp, I would say it is probably 90% women, mainly left wing, mainly older, often lesbians or sexual assault survivors, with a few supportive male voices. The supportive male voices tend to be gay men, dads of daughters and men with a particular interest in sport.

In the TWAW camp, there are also a lot of women, again mainly left wing women, but as a general rule younger and more privileged, who mix in more "woke" circles and are stuck hard on "be kind". In some cases it seems to be a genuine desire to be kind, in others it seems to be more for reputational reasons (wanting to be seen as having the right opinions). The men who insist that TWAW are of a very similar demographic but often come across as though they have secretly always hated women and are now delighted to be able to bash women whilst pretending to be progressive at the same time.

I'd say the majority of the population doesn't care all that much but also doesn't believe TWAW.

Yeah, women are more likely to have strong feelings on the GC side but also more likely to be committed TRAs compared to men.

I would guess that men are less likely to give two hoots about it, because it doesn't really affect them so their single sex spaces and sports aren't under threat, but they also haven't been socialised to be kind and they know that they aren't going to get rape and death threats if they point out that if you have a penis you're a man. (See the difference in treatment between JKR/Maya Forstater and Richard Dawkins/Ricky Gervais, for example.)

Women, on the other hand, have more skin in the game which might make them gender critical, but are also victims of female socialisation and probably care a lot more about being liked/not being cancelled, which might make them TWAW.

Yes I think so. My son (20) gets it because of the sports context - and that's also the context where it is most acceptable to mention it.

Anything else and you are a TERF or a transphobe. But you can just about raise concerns about the integrity of womens' sport in his age group.

My brother, who is one of the kindest and most thoughtful people I know, is now quite openly gender critical.

But it was sports that upset him first because he is very interested in sports, all sports, including women's sports.

It took me saying, "Yes, the sports thing is completely unfair, but is it worse than women being raped in prison by male inmates who identify as women?" to properly peak him.

Sorry, I wasn’t sure if it was the right way to phrase it! Trans child, child with gender dysphoria…dunno if these are more appropriate? I do agree with you though

The Parliamentary debate in Westminster Hall was reassuring. Half a dozen ordinary men who happened to be MPs made careful, considerate and personal speeches covering their concerns and explaining the need to clarify biological sex.

I suspect four or five years ago they would not have thought the issue was important. They do now and are saying the right things.

They all happened to be Tory. I am sure there are an equal number of Labour men. They just need to find some courage.

... wow.

This is a lot of answers!

what's clear is that an awful lot of people have reservations (to say the least) about the trans movement but that of the supporters, it can be both genders but there's a significant presence of younger and priviliged women.

Some fairly random points written more or less in order that I read the posts:

Transwomen working for rape organisations and women being told they have to accept counselling from them is a cruel abomination.

A woman will get called a terf and dogpiled online. A man will not or far less so well that's certainly been my experience, being dogpiled. Not sure if it was obvious I am a woman!

The issue of the Male Gaze is one I hadn't thought of but it's a really good point. I can't help feeling that having your male genitals removed does make a difference though.

Take the point now that there are no male or female brains.

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn Hrm, now it seems I was indoctrinated by the patriarchy ... How they feel? How does a woman feel? What feelings do I have that I share with other women but not with men?
The harder you stretch for an answer that makes sense, the further one is from your grasp.
Eventually you end up concluding that the reason for that is there isn't an answer that makes sense.

Some activities are done by far more women and some by far more men (eg embroidery, motorbike riding) but that -is- different from feeling like a woman. Point taken.

@Transparent2 My heart went out to you when I read your post. I hope you can shepherd him through this until he's adult and can make a more independent decision rather than having been persuaded into it.

@OldGardinia thank you for your well thought out posts. Lot to think about. Still have some questions but I appreciate the time you've taken to post. The comments you made about trans correlating with autism were thought provoking - my autistic oldest son is firmly hetero but if he was less sure I could see him easily have been persuaded into something that he actually would need some years to work out for himself, in order to find an accepting social group :(

@EnjoythemoneyJane A world in which my 15 yr old daughter defiantly screamed at me, ‘who are you to say a lesbian can’t have a penis?’. Oh god. I hope she comes to see the problem with this before long ... !

@MrsAvocet My teenage son is openly GC and has lost friends over it, though many of his peers say they privately agree but are scared to admit their views publicly This, this is part of what I object to strongly.

@ILikeDungs Yup, no amount of surgery and hormones is going to replace the early socialization as female or male. Not possible.

@FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper Thank you for your thoughtful post too. I think it's very unwise and unfair to brush them away as one homogenous group, along with the activists, and spurn the male 'allies' (to use the activists' own word) who are firmly on the side of fairness and common sense. Mostly I was curious what the rough division was, but from the answers on this thread it's clear there are a lot of skeptical (and sensible) men about the whole movement.

@knittingaddict
My husband shares my gc views. He may or may not have been influenced by my own views. Couldn't possibly comment. Lucky you. Just had a very heated discussion with my far-too-nice partner who wants to be fair to everyone.

@mirax
Polls have have repeatedly shown women, left leaning individuals and the highly educated are the most fervent supporters of gender ideology. .. weird. 'Women' includes transwomen here, of course :P

@oldwhyno I am increasingly hoping that people will indeed come out on the side that women's spaces should be penis-free. I cannot get away from the reality that people with penises are forcing their way into spaces which are meant only for people with vaginas. (Dear god, the linguistic gymnastics are crazy at times)
Also your post at Today 13:10 seems eminently sensible to me, agree with what you say.

Thanks to everyone who's posted.

These statements:

The issue of the Male Gaze is one I hadn't thought of but it's a really good point. I can't help feeling that having your male genitals removed does make a difference though.

and

Yup, no amount of surgery and hormones is going to replace the early socialization as female or male. Not possible.

confuse me. If you think that removing genitals in no way replaces male socialization then you agree with me about the Male Gaze. To me the male gaze is the presence of someone who is male, genitals intact or not, choosing to be in a women's space with the possibility of seeing women undressed, showering, whatever. His male upbringing will possibly excite many emotions: the warm glow of validation, the glee of seeing that which has been denied him in the past, and what has been coined "gender euphoria" (sorry to be crude, but I think this means boner). Penis or not, I say "no, thank you."

I’m a big sports fan. I play golf to a decent standard, I hold a season ticket at a Championship club, and I’m going to the Test Match at Lord’s next week. This lot means that I talk to a lot of men about sport, both on line and IRL.

Almost every single man who has expressed a view to me regarding blokes being allowed to compete in women’s sports views it as fundamentally unsafe and completely fucking ridiculous. “Farcical” is a frequently used word. Many of these guys are fathers of daughters and wouldn’t want a trans-identified male in her changing room, or tackling her on the football pitch.

I’m convinced that using sport is the best way to highlight the absurdity of TWAW to men. Using humour & ridicule would be a highly effective, if controversial tactic.

@BarelyLiterate I agree that sport is a good gateway issue to get men on board. But it would be really damaging if the discussion began and ended with sports, and female prisoners and rape survivors still got ignored.

This is such a non issue. The planet is burning, people are starving, refugees are dying on ships. Maybe everyone should focus their anger on that

You're on the feminism board.

I find it very curious that we get told, "This is such a non issue, poverty, climate change, yadda yadda" in response to our assertion that women should be allowed to exist, but nobody EVER says the same thing to trans people who think the fact that their penis isn’t welcome in women's communal showers and you need a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria before you are allowed to get a fake birth certificate is a gross infringement of their human rights.

I’ve never met anyone in real life - man, woman, gay, straight - who doesn’t think it’s all a load of cobblers.

people are shy of admitting it until they realise you feel the same though.

That's because people generally think of transwomen when trans people are mentioned. And males' rights matter, of course.

@ILikeDungs Someone with the genitals removed can't get a boner! I imagine if you're taking female hormones that your sexual reactions might be quite different to before but ofc don't know. I don't think I could venture a guess at the person's emotions/feelings/sensations. One would need an (honest) transwoman to actually articulate them. Emphasis on honest.

However there is the past socialization aspect and that can't be removed.

The Male Gaze is a concept I came across broadly at university and I think most of us have had the experience of intrusive male gazes, but I haven't studied the deeper thought behind it; so where does the line get drawn between simply someone looking at a woman absently, and studying her in a sexual / patriarchal / power-imbalance way? It's not something I know about but if someone's been socialized as a male with the power advantage that brings, the difference in ways of speech and interaction, then transitions, that deep conditioning isn't going to disappear.

Something of an uncomfortable situation for trans-people.

Very few trans women actually have their penises removed, OP.